Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12] >
ProZ Find™ (new freelancer directory) released in alpha stage. Feedback sought.
Thread poster: ..... (X)
Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 09:16
Danish to English
+ ...
Kudoz May 10, 2018

How are Kudoz points treated? Are only precisely the points in the given source and target combination and speciality (if applicable) taken into account, or do you apply some sort of weighting to Kudoz points in the opposite direction and other specialities or languages too?

A legal text, for example, can also refer to other specialities, for example IT, construction or medicine. Exclusive skills in one single speciality are often insufficient, so taking a binary approach to Kudoz p
... See more
How are Kudoz points treated? Are only precisely the points in the given source and target combination and speciality (if applicable) taken into account, or do you apply some sort of weighting to Kudoz points in the opposite direction and other specialities or languages too?

A legal text, for example, can also refer to other specialities, for example IT, construction or medicine. Exclusive skills in one single speciality are often insufficient, so taking a binary approach to Kudoz points would not seem to reflect the common need for someone with a bit wider knowledge than exactly the primary speciality.
Collapse


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 05:16
SITE FOUNDER
Thanks, Thomas May 10, 2018

Thomas T. Frost wrote:

How are Kudoz points treated? Are only precisely the points in the given source and target combination and speciality (if applicable) taken into account, or do you apply some sort of weighting to Kudoz points in the opposite direction and other specialities or languages too?

A legal text, for example, can also refer to other specialities, for example IT, construction or medicine. Exclusive skills in one single speciality are often insufficient, so taking a binary approach to Kudoz points would not seem to reflect the common need for someone with a bit wider knowledge than exactly the primary speciality.

Hi Thomas,

Even in the traditional directory, sorting was done according to "combination-specific", then language pair, then overall KudoZ points. So yes, the algorithm does look at more than just KudoZ points in combination. (By "combination", I mean pair and field.)

The idea of using contiguous fields is interesting, and I don't know if we have experimented with that yet. We'll discuss internally.


 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:16
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
@Henry, @Kevin May 11, 2018

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
I agree that being native in the target language (or the source language in some cases) is often an important criteria, so I suggest you include it for the client to specify. It would logically fit on the first page that asks for the language pair for the search.
I would put 3 radio-buttons there:
- require native in the target language
- require native in the source language
- no native language requirement (default)

Thanks, Katalin. We will do this.


Thank you very much for listening.
I saw you just included the radio buttons on the language selection screen. I like the way the statistics are there right away, that helps the client with the choice.
However, the default setting is incorrect, it is still the first choice (require native in target), not the 3rd, the neutral option, as I asked - and others agreed.
I assume it is just a programming mistake - it should be easy to fix.
Thanks
Katalin


 
Roman Karabaev
Roman Karabaev  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 13:16
English to Russian
+ ...
* May 11, 2018

A search in my language pair (criteria: Client feedback, rates (no specific numbers set), years of experience; no specialty fields chosen) gets a person with 6 years of experience, 12 positive WWA entries and 1900 Kudoz points HIGHER than a person with 33 years of experience, 16 positive entries and 21,800 Kudoz points.
Good job!

And I moved from 3-rd to 64-th position in the search results in one of my specialty fields.
Soo happy now.


 
Jo Macdonald
Jo Macdonald  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 10:16
Member (2005)
Italian to English
+ ...
Rate filter not working May 11, 2018

Hi Kevin,
I still have a problem with the rate filter.
If I apply the filter I show up in the searches but as soon as I enter a rate I no longer appear in the results.
I've tried many different rates and no dice.
I do not specify my rates in my profile, my rates are set to 0.00.
Can you fix this or explain what I have to change to appear in the results if someone enters rates?
Thanks


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 05:16
SITE FOUNDER
Open to ideas May 11, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
Thank you very much for listening.

It was a good idea!

I saw you just included the radio buttons on the language selection screen. I like the way the statistics are there right away, that helps the client with the choice.
However, the default setting is incorrect, it is still the first choice (require native in target), not the 3rd, the neutral option...

This is intentional. The overwhelming majority of searchers require native-in-target, which makes it suitable as the default. Since very few people prefer the third option (in most cases anyway; there are certain languages in which clients may need to relax requirements), it is not suitable as the default.

I am aware that some ProZ.com members can translate viably into a non-native language. (We also know that some people believe or say they can, but in some instances turn out not to deliver work to the expected standard.) I am open to any ideas that serve the interests of those who can translate viably into a non-native language -- and maybe even open some clients' minds to the existence of such people -- but let us accept that native-in-target is very much the norm in the industry.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 05:16
SITE FOUNDER
Thanks, Roman and Jo May 11, 2018

Roman Karabaev wrote:

A search in my language pair (criteria: Client feedback, rates (no specific numbers set), years of experience; no specialty fields chosen) gets a person with 6 years of experience, 12 positive WWA entries and 1900 Kudoz points HIGHER than a person with 33 years of experience, 16 positive entries and 21,800 Kudoz points.

Thank you for this specific report. One adjustment has been made. You can expect further research and adjustments.

And I moved from 3-rd to 64-th position in the search results in one of my specialty fields.

Which field was that?

Jo Macdonald wrote:

I still have a problem with the rate filter.

Thanks for this report. We will investigate.


 
Roman Karabaev
Roman Karabaev  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 13:16
English to Russian
+ ...
* May 11, 2018

Henry Dotterer wrote:
Thank you for this specific report. One adjustment has been made. You can expect further research and adjustments.


And still I see some similar issues on the very first results page (same criteria as stated above).

Henry Dotterer wrote:
Which field was that?


That was "Tecnhical/Engineering". On the other hand, I'm getting similar results for the rest of the fields (including "Any fields" option).

Moreover, I also have some questions regarding the criteria.
Let's take "Years of experience". What could prevent me from editing my profile to have 30 or 40 years of experience?

Next, "Rates". Somehow I get a feeling that this is a gift for bottom-feeders and yet another factor to drive the rates down. Many translators do not specify exact rates because they want to negotiate and maybe reason with a potential client (besides, rates may differ depending on the source text, deadlines, and other factors). And now such translators will just be filtered out without having an opportunity to present themselves well in the correspondence.

[Edited at 2018-05-11 18:19 GMT]


 
..... (X)
..... (X)
Local time: 18:16
TOPIC STARTER
Rates / CPN May 11, 2018

Jo Macdonald wrote:

Hi Kevin,
I still have a problem with the rate filter.
If I apply the filter I show up in the searches but as soon as I enter a rate I no longer appear in the results.
I've tried many different rates and no dice.
I do not specify my rates in my profile, my rates are set to 0.00.
Can you fix this or explain what I have to change to appear in the results if someone enters rates?
Thanks


Hi Jo,

If your rates are not set (both minimum and standard rates are at 0.00) you will not show up in rate searches. If you want to appear in rate searches, you can set your rates here.

Roman Karabaev wrote:
And I moved from 3-rd to 64-th position in the search results in one of my specialty fields.

That was "Tecnhical/Engineering". On the other hand, I'm getting similar results for the rest of the fields (including "Any fields" option).


Hi Roman,

The ProZ.com Certified PRO Network (CPN) is one of the factors used in determining the positioning in ProZ Find. Your language pair has a lot of PRO certified members. If you were PRO certified your position in ProZ Find would be comparable or higher than your position in the current ProZ.com directory.

Roman Karabaev wrote:
Moreover, I also have some questions regarding the criteria.
Let's take "Years of experience". What could prevent me from editing my profile to have 30 or 40 years of experience?


Years of experience is used in tandem with years at ProZ.com. There are caps and limits in place to prevent the type of abuse you mention (i.e. looking at the difference between one's years of experience and years at ProZ.com).


 
..... (X)
..... (X)
Local time: 18:16
TOPIC STARTER
Rates May 11, 2018

Roman Karabaev wrote:

Next, "Rates". Somehow I get a feeling that this is a gift for bottom-feeders and yet another factor to drive the rates down. Many translators do not specify exact rates because they want to negotiate and maybe reason with a potential client (besides, rates may differ depending on the source text, deadlines, and other factors). And now such translators will just be filtered out without having an opportunity to present themselves well in the correspondence.

[Edited at 2018-05-11 18:19 GMT]


Hi Roman,

To date, the average rate† of the service providers who have been contacted by outsourcers through ProZ Find™ is at (actually slightly above) the ProZ.com community rates. We will continue to monitor this closely going forward.

The budget filter has been used in ~5% of searches.

† This includes adjusting for (i.e. removing) those who have specified unrealistically high rates for the purpose of appearing in all rate searches.


 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:16
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
@Henry - the Cornerstones are important principles - idea for a solution May 12, 2018

This note is quite long. If you want to jump to the conclusion first, scroll down to the paragraph that starts at ***. (Then you can come back and read the reasoning.)


Henry Dotterer wrote:

I saw you just included the radio buttons on the language selection screen. I like the way the statistics are there right away, that helps the client with the choice.
However, the default setting is incorrect, it is still the first choice (require native in target), not the 3rd, the neutral option...


This is intentional. The overwhelming majority of searchers require native-in-target, which makes it suitable as the default. Since very few people prefer the third option (in most cases anyway; there are certain languages in which clients may need to relax requirements), it is not suitable as the default.


Henry, I really would like you to step back for a moment, and remember the "Cornerstones". Those, that you have referred back to time and again, whenever any idea or discussion came up that would have required ProZ.com to take a side in a controversial, highly debated issue. The Guiding Principles have proven to be solid and reliable, and I think they were (and are) instrumental in ProZ.com's success. I am asking you to reconsider this issue in that framework.
You repeatedly stressed that ProZ.com is not a linguistic authority, therefore, ProZ.com itself is not making any judgement related to the language abilities of its members. You also stressed that ProZ.com is not a middleman, only a marketplace, therefore it does not interfere with the business relationship of its users. ProZ.com also does not tell anybody how to conduct their own business: the user is the one who has authority over that. To be exact:

The person with the need sets the parameters. Whether it be KudoZ, the forums or the jobs system, the person who has the need is given options for setting parameters and directing the flow of an exchange.

https://www.proz.com/?sp=info/cornerstones

Offering a choice to filter for native languages is perfectly in line with these principles.
However, pre-setting a certain filter is not in line with them, because a filter directs the flow of the data (the object of the exchange) in a very specific way.
It is not in line with the principle of non-interference (by guiding the search, by making assumptions what the user wanted when he skipped a parameter), and it is not in line with the not-taking-sides, not being a linguistic authority principle either, because that pre-set suggests that ProZ.com is endorsing the validity of one specific opinion in the matter. (See an earlier comment from jyuan_us about that.)
If you think about it, currently this native-filter essentially an opt-out filter, because the default is ON.
This is not right.

Henry Dotterer wrote:
I am aware that some ProZ.com members can translate viably into a non-native language. (We also know that some people believe or say they can, but in some instances turn out not to deliver work to the expected standard.)

Henry, please note that what you wrote here has nothing to do with the basic principles I am talking about.
Whether the user sets the native filter in the search has nothing to do with the ability of people translating into a certain language. Turning the filter on does nothing more than restricts the list to those who specified that language as their native. (As of now, in most cases it is not even verified.) There were gazillion forum discussions about this over the entire existence of ProZ, and the only consensus that we were able to ever reach was that being native in a language does not guarantee the quality of the translation produced. Therefore, it is the outsourcer's responsibility to set up his own requirements, based on his own needs according to his experience, beliefs, assumptions, whatever, to mitigate the risks of unmet expectations.

Henry Dotterer wrote:
I am open to any ideas that serve the interests of those who can translate viably into a non-native language -- and maybe even open some clients' minds to the existence of such people

This is a tangent to the present discussion (which is about principles, not serving the interest of non-natives), but let me just note that several ideas were brought up over the years about this. For example, the idea of expanding the language ability attribute from the current binary (native/non-native) to include native-level, which means the person can produce translations at the same quality level as native translators. So the product is native, while the person is not. (Easy example, someone who writes, translates into flawless English, but speaks with a recognizable accent, because the person was not born, did not grow up in that country.) Having the native-level option both in the searches and in profiles would allow people to declare this type of ability without having to lie about their native language. But this is tangent to the present conversation, so let's return to the main issue.

Henry Dotterer wrote:
let us accept that native-in-target is very much the norm in the industry.

Let's not make statements like that. There is no such "standard" that specifically says that. There is a general expectation that translations should read as if they were originally written in the target language conforming to the grammar rules and stylistic standards of that language. But this is not the same as creating a search filter that is pre-set for finding target-native people.

I am suggesting not to do any sort of pre-setting like that, because it is very much a slippery slope.
We could also argue that using CAT-tools is very much the norm in the industry. Is there a pre-set filter for that? No, right?
We could also argue that paying/charging a minimum of ten cents per word (arbitrary figure) is pretty much the norm in Western Europe (arbitrary location), yet the rate input field is not pre-set to a certain rate (for example community rate) in the job post form, is it? There is no default rate set on the Quote form either, right?
Even though technically possible, those settings are not implemented because of the Guiding Principles, as in "The person with the need sets the parameters."
Let that choice be free, unguided.

Looking at it from the technical point of view, default settings in any software are there so that the program would know what to do, even if the parameter is not set for some reason, e.g. the user does not make a choice, or a certain setting option is skipped.
In the case of a search algorithm, the use of a filter reduces the "hits", therefore if the user does not specifically sets it (skips the setting), it should not be set, because it means the user does not care about filtering for that parameter. The software (system) should make no assumptions as to what the user might have wanted.

In case you want to say that "well, we tracked how users use the search interface and we saw that the majority of searches include the native target setting" - well, that is fine, but it does not mean that you have to assume that all users want to have that as the default setting all the time.

Next, you might want to say "but we want to help our users, to offer them conveniences".
Well, that is fine too, and I think there is actually a solution that would be a good compromise: where each user can specify the default setting that THEY want to see use they are using the search screen often (i.e. save their preferences).
We have this concept built into the KudoZ screen (preserving the filter for language pairs), and a similar setting is possible for browsing the job board and some other places that I can't recall right now. For KudoZ and Jobs, the language filter setting is opt-in: the default is "All" (no filtering, all are shown), as it should be.

Sorry for the long note, I was actually writing as I was thinking, and just realized how long it has gotten.
***
Let me clarify one more time what I think would be an acceptable implementation.
3 radio buttons:
- require native in the target language
- require native in the source language
- no native language requirement (this is the default, this is the one pre-selected when the page opens)
BUT (this is the new modification):
Include an additional button to save the selected setting, and then next time that radio button would be pre-selected, when the same user opens that same page. (It could still be modified each time, of course.)


This method would be in line with the Guiding principles, and would offer the user-friendly convenience that you might be seeking. (And most importantly, implementing this would make me stop bugging you about it.)

What do you think?
Katalin

[Edited at 2018-05-12 08:02 GMT]


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 10:16
Member
English to Italian
Minefield May 12, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

You repeatedly stressed that ProZ.com is not a linguistic authority, therefore, ProZ.com itself is not making any judgement related to the language abilities of its members. You also stressed that ProZ.com is not a middleman, only a marketplace, therefore it does not interfere with the business relationship of its users. ProZ.com also does not tell anybody how to conduct their own business: the user is the one who has authority over that. To be exact:

The person with the need sets the parameters. Whether it be KudoZ, the forums or the jobs system, the person who has the need is given options for setting parameters and directing the flow of an exchange.

https://www.proz.com/?sp=info/cornerstones


And yet, we have discovered (in this very thread*) that CPN membership** "boosts" one's ranking in the search (and the same can probably be said of a number of other parameters)...

*Kevin Dias wrote:

The ProZ.com Certified PRO Network (CPN) is one of the factors used in determining the positioning in ProZ Find. Your language pair has a lot of PRO certified members. If you were PRO certified your position in ProZ Find would be comparable or higher than your position in the current ProZ.com directory.


** Which is the exact opposite of 'ProZ.com itself is not making any judgement related to the language abilities of its members'.


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 10:16
French to English
If it's the user that defines the need... May 13, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:


The person with the need sets the parameters.

https://www.proz.com/?sp=info/cornerstones

Offering a choice to filter for native languages is perfectly in line with these principles.
However, pre-setting a certain filter is not in line with them, because a filter directs the flow of the data (the object of the exchange) in a very specific way.

I am suggesting not to do any sort of pre-setting like that, because it is very much a slippery slope.

Thank you for this reasoning Katalin. I'm firmly in the native target camp, but you have given a totally reasonable argument based on principles that were previously set up.

I think your suggestion to tick the "no native requirement" by default would be just as much a slippery slope as to tick the "native target" by default. It implies that Proz doesn't think it's at all important, which can influence users just as much the current setup which implies that Proz thinks target is important.

I would suggest that the list of choices for the person setting their parameters stay completely open, with nothing preset, and that they simply have to make a choice in order to move ahead.

Your idea of then keeping the user's settings for next time is excellent (I had assumed it would already be the case in fact).


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:16
Member (2005)
Chinese to English
You are seconded in everything you said May 13, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
This note is quite long. If you want to jump to the conclusion first, scroll down to the paragraph that starts at ***. (Then you can come back and read the reasoning.)



[Edited at 2018-05-12 08:02 GMT]


I read every word in your long post and everything you said makes perfect sense. I totally agree with you.


 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:16
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
It is merely a technical implementation issue May 14, 2018

Kay Denney wrote:

... you have given a totally reasonable argument based on principles that were previously set up.

Thank you, especially that you read my long post.

I think your suggestion to tick the "no native requirement" by default would be just as much a slippery slope as to tick the "native target" by default. It implies that Proz doesn't think it's at all important, which can influence users just as much the current setup which implies that Proz thinks target is important.


The suggestion of the third radio button was simply for technical reasons. I think if you have two radio buttons on a webpage, once you click on one of them, you cannot unclick it. If you click on the other one, that will turn on and the first one will turn off, so you can switch back and forth between the two buttons, but you cannot clear out them, if you wanted to. Not a pleasant experience if you accidentally click one of them, while you really wanted to leave them open. Checkboxes are different, they can be freely checked and unchecked with a click, but the problem with them that it is more complicated to ensure that only one checkbox is checked.
If I am wrong, and it is possible to present a set of radio buttons with none of them turned on, and if it is possible for the user to turn all of them off, then there is no need for the 3rd button.

I would suggest that the list of choices for the person setting their parameters stay completely open, with nothing preset, and that they simply have to make a choice in order to move ahead.

I am fine with that too, if that is possible to implement (see technical explanation above).

Your idea of then keeping the user's settings for next time is excellent (I had assumed it would already be the case in fact).

Thanks, and no, it is definitely not the case as of now.


 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

ProZ Find™ (new freelancer directory) released in alpha stage. Feedback sought.






Trados Studio 2022 Freelance
The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.

Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.

More info »
Protemos translation business management system
Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!

The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.

More info »