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ProZ Find™ (new freelancer directory) released in alpha stage. Feedback sought.
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@Gerard May 1, 2018

Gerard de Noord wrote:

I've opted out of showing reviews and rates but now they are showing in the new search results:
https://www.proz.com/find?slwz=fra&tlwz=dut&f_wz=broad_7&st=1&q=&sl=fra&tl=dut&nit=y&lpe=3&f=broad_7&rpp=25
https://www.proz.com/find?slwz=deu&tlwz=dut&f_wz=68&ot_z=y&st=1&q=&sl=deu&tl=dut&nit=y&lpe=3&f=68&rpp=25
These kind of leaks will become very expensive under the forthcoming European General Data Protection Regulation.

Giving clients a toggle option to view SecurePROtm members only means that members who don't want to fork out for the Plus package can be filtered from the search results at one fell swoop.

Cheers,
Gerard


Hi Gerard,

You currently have your rates set to:
- Show rates to "Everyone"
- Show rates in "My profile and the directory"

You can adjust that setting here: https://www.proz.com/settings/freelancer/financial

Thank you for pointing out the issue with client feedback, that has been fixed.

As for SecurePRO™, you do not need to be a Plus subscriber to fill out the card. Those who fill out the "Security procedures" free form text area will show up in the search.


 
Alistair Gainey
Alistair Gainey  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:10
Russian to English
The budget filter May 1, 2018

The budget filter seems to recognise only rates set in EUR or USD. So anyone with their rates set in another currency (GBP, say) doesn't come up in the results, whatever the limits chosen. Or am I doing something wrong?

 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:10
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Time May 1, 2018

I'm just wondering how much time I am supposed to spend updating my profile so that I get the (presumed) advantages of this.

To help me, will someone kindly list the advantages? What will happen if I just leave my profile the way it is?

Briefly, please.


 
Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 11:10
Danish to English
+ ...
Rate search doesn't work May 1, 2018

I don't show up at all if I include a rate filter in my search, and I have specified rates for all language pairs.

There is a serious bug here. I have individual rates per language pair. Don't you look at them at all?


 
Jennifer Levey
Jennifer Levey  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 08:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
Building on sand? May 1, 2018

The OP leaves me thinking that the new system is founded on a view of what constitutes a “better filter” that may not be of such universal relevance as the developers seem to think. An example:


The second Q in the FAQ says (with my emphasis):
Q: Does the new search algorithm benefit service providers who are more specialized?
A: Yes, when an outsourcer performs a search with a specific parameter, those who are specialized in said parameter will score higher than those who have that parameter included as one of many. For example, if an outsourcer performs a search within the field "Astronomy and Space" a service provider with one specialized field of "Astronomy and Space" will score higher than a service provider who has "Astronomy and Space" included amongst 8 other fields.


The assumption is clearly that highly focused specialists necessarily provide a “better” service than a “jack of all (or even just a few) trades”. But that is so often not the case. If I need to have a bridge-building contract translated, what single exclusive specialisation am I looking for? Civil engineering? Law? Do I, as the client, even know which of those two areas will turn out to be the more difficult to translate? Is this a novel engineering project but a boiler-plate contract? – or a standard “off the shelf” bridge to be built in a country at war?

The same “field” lists are used on Kudoz and those of us who have “legal” as a field are constantly bombarded with highly specialist questions about technology (because “legal” includes “patents” and most patents are about some kind of technology). Likewise, we see many “legal” questions about the technical/scientific terms found in business contracts. In my experience, in fact, there are very few source texts that fall exclusively within one “field” – and that is becoming increasingly true in the ever more convergent and integrated world we live in. Example: when the Proz “field” lists were first designed it was reasonable to consider “IT” and “Media/Multimedia” as two different fields. That is no longer true.

Another consideration is that many users/members may want to set their “fields” in one particular way for Kudoz (to enhance their opportunities to help colleagues) and in a different way when looking for work (directory search). Many of my own “fields” are topics in which I have accumulated experience and informal knowledge over the years and in which I have been able to assist colleagues – but in which I would never want to be involved as a fee-earning translator. The same applies to some of my language pairs, also set for Kudoz, not for directory/job purposes.

What I’m getting at, is that if the list of “fields” used to set the directory filters is not a fair reflection of the real-world structure and content of the mass of documents out there waiting to be translated, then excessive focus on a translator’s “exclusive” skill in a single field will actually decrease his chance of winning a potentially lucrative job.

Conclusion: “Find” needs to use a complete new “fields/”sub-fields” structure suited to the task at hand (matching jobs to translator skills/experience), and not rely on a classification that has so often shown its weaknesses in the world of Kudoz.


 
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Local time: 20:10
TOPIC STARTER
A hybrid approach May 1, 2018

Alistair Gainey wrote:
The budget filter seems to recognise only rates set in EUR or USD. So anyone with their rates set in another currency (GBP, say) doesn't come up in the results, whatever the limits chosen. Or am I doing something wrong?


Hi Alistair, thanks for the feedback. Currently the search only supports EUR and USD; however, support for all currencies in on the list of future improvements.

Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I don't show up at all if I include a rate filter in my search, and I have specified rates for all language pairs.
There is a serious bug here. I have individual rates per language pair. Don't you look at them at all?


Hi Thomas, yes the search does look at individual rates per language pair. There was a bug where those who opted out of general rates were not showing for language pair rates which has now been fixed.

Robin Levey wrote:
Building on sand?

The OP leaves me thinking that the new system is founded on a view of what constitutes a “better filter” that may not be of such universal relevance as the developers seem to think. An example:


The second Q in the FAQ says (with my emphasis):
Q: Does the new search algorithm benefit service providers who are more specialized?
A: Yes, when an outsourcer performs a search with a specific parameter, those who are specialized in said parameter will score higher than those who have that parameter included as one of many. For example, if an outsourcer performs a search within the field "Astronomy and Space" a service provider with one specialized field of "Astronomy and Space" will score higher than a service provider who has "Astronomy and Space" included amongst 8 other fields.


The assumption is clearly that highly focused specialists necessarily provide a “better” service than a “jack of all (or even just a few) trades”. But that is so often not the case. If I need to have a bridge-building contract translated, what single exclusive specialisation am I looking for? Civil engineering? Law? Do I, as the client, even know which of those two areas will turn out to be the more difficult to translate? Is this a novel engineering project but a boiler-plate contract? – or a standard “off the shelf” bridge to be built in a country at war?

The same “field” lists are used on Kudoz and those of us who have “legal” as a field are constantly bombarded with highly specialist questions about technology (because “legal” includes “patents” and most patents are about some kind of technology). Likewise, we see many “legal” questions about the technical/scientific terms found in business contracts. In my experience, in fact, there are very few source texts that fall exclusively within one “field” – and that is becoming increasingly true in the ever more convergent and integrated world we live in. Example: when the Proz “field” lists were first designed it was reasonable to consider “IT” and “Media/Multimedia” as two different fields. That is no longer true.

Another consideration is that many users/members may want to set their “fields” in one particular way for Kudoz (to enhance their opportunities to help colleagues) and in a different way when looking for work (directory search). Many of my own “fields” are topics in which I have accumulated experience and informal knowledge over the years and in which I have been able to assist colleagues – but in which I would never want to be involved as a fee-earning translator. The same applies to some of my language pairs, also set for Kudoz, not for directory/job purposes.

What I’m getting at, is that if the list of “fields” used to set the directory filters is not a fair reflection of the real-world structure and content of the mass of documents out there waiting to be translated, then excessive focus on a translator’s “exclusive” skill in a single field will actually decrease his chance of winning a potentially lucrative job.

Conclusion: “Find” needs to use a complete new “fields/”sub-fields” structure suited to the task at hand (matching jobs to translator skills/experience), and not rely on a classification that has so often shown its weaknesses in the world of Kudoz.


Hi Robin, thanks for the feedback.

I think you bring up a great point with regard to field classifications. They can be outdated and the boundaries are very fluid from one field to another. As you mentioned, a translation job may include terminology that touches on a few different "field" classifications.

This is why a few years ago I founded TM-Town and started working on a way to search for service providers based on the terminology they worked with and were most familiar with. The first generation of this idea is TM-Town's Nakōdo search which allows an outsourcer or end client to search a portion of the text or terms they need translated - with the results being the service providers with the most experience in that terminology.

ProZ Find is the next iteration of this idea, and is a hybrid of sorts. While some outsourcers appreciated the concept of the Nakōdo search, it was a little too different/radical for others. ProZ Find seeks to bridge this gap. Accommodating the traditional concept of a directory search (with traditional search parameters) while still providing the power of a deep terminology search.

In the first few weeks outsourcers are already making use of this terminology search functionality. 7.5% of searches include a keyword(s) query (only 1.4% of searches in the old directory included a keyword search). I expect this number to rise over time as outsourcers become more accustomed to this new search tool. For comparison 30.7% of searches include a field of expertise.

In conclusion I would counter that this new search system is moreso founded on the view that what constitutes a “better filter” is looking at the terminology a translator has experience in / is familiar with.

Robin Levey wrote:
Another consideration is that many users/members may want to set their “fields” in one particular way for Kudoz (to enhance their opportunities to help colleagues) and in a different way when looking for work (directory search)


This is a great point and something the team will look into - allowing a way to set a field for KudoZ only.


 
Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 11:10
Danish to English
+ ...
Keywords May 2, 2018

Since you mentioned the importance of keywords, Kevin, excuse me for going a bit off-topic, but it ties in with the Find function.

A couple of months ago, I suggested making a bulk upload facility for What Translators are Working On:
... See more
Since you mentioned the importance of keywords, Kevin, excuse me for going a bit off-topic, but it ties in with the Find function.

A couple of months ago, I suggested making a bulk upload facility for What Translators are Working On:
https://proz.uservoice.com/forums/37172-proz-com-ideas/suggestions/33379516-allow-bulk-upload-to-what-translators-are-working .

There is no need to repeat the contents of the suggestion here, as it can be seen by clicking on the link, but improving performance of that tool could result in more relevant keywords being made available, not least if I could take my spreadsheets of work completed in the past and upload them to What Translators are Working On. Would it be difficult to provide, basing it on Excel files in a format defined by Proz?
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Local time: 20:10
TOPIC STARTER
Keywords May 2, 2018

Thomas T. Frost wrote:

Since you mentioned the importance of keywords, Kevin, excuse me for going a bit off-topic, but it ties in with the Find function.

A couple of months ago, I suggested making a bulk upload facility for What Translators are Working On:
https://proz.uservoice.com/forums/37172-proz-com-ideas/suggestions/33379516-allow-bulk-upload-to-what-translators-are-working .

There is no need to repeat the contents of the suggestion here, as it can be seen by clicking on the link, but improving performance of that tool could result in more relevant keywords being made available, not least if I could take my spreadsheets of work completed in the past and upload them to What Translators are Working On. Would it be difficult to provide, basing it on Excel files in a format defined by Proz?


Hi Thomas,

Thanks for the suggestion on the What Translators are Working On feature, we'll add that to the pipeline. As an alternative in the meantime there are a few bulk import methods you could use to index your terms in this search:

1) ProZ.com personal glossaries are indexed into the ProZ Find search. This feature has a import feature for a CSV or tab delimited file.

2) On TM-Town you can upload an Excel file of terms. These will also be indexed into ProZ Find. This blog article explains the format for glossaries and this one explains the format for TM files.


 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:10
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
@Kevin Dias - SecurePro free text field vs. specific procedures selected from the list May 2, 2018

Kevin Dias wrote:

As for SecurePRO™, you do not need to be a Plus subscriber to fill out the card. Those who fill out the "Security procedures" free form text area will show up in the search.


This explains why I did not show up, as I described in my post (on the previous page).
Is this crucial piece of information published anywhere on the page where we set up the SecurePro Card?
Because I don't remember reading anything about this, and I just went through that area yesterday.
I saw the text fields, but there was a choice of using the prepared lists, which I did.
I must say, going through those options took me about an hour, because even though I clicked on my choices very quickly, the pages were painfully slow to update.
Now, you are telling me that all that was for pretty much nothing, now I have to go back and add some text to the free text fields as well, because that is what counts...
I am sorry, but if this is the case, it does not make sense. Please tell me I misunderstood what you wrote.
If someone adds a very generic line such as "Protecting my clients confidential information is of utmost importance to me" that would result in the person appearing in SecurePro searches, but another person, who selected very specific procedures in all those categories, would not even appear when the SecurePro switch is turned on???
Does this make sense to you?


UPDATE: I just added a line to each of those two free text fields. The little SecurePro shield shows up next to my name in the search results, however when I throw the switch for SecurePro (On), I disappear. Other colleagues who have the same green shield next to their names, stay on the list.
Please explain what is going on.

[Edited at 2018-05-02 06:13 GMT]


 
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Local time: 20:10
TOPIC STARTER
SecurePRO™ May 2, 2018

Hi Katalin,

Thanks for the feedback. The SecurePRO™ filter will be updated to include those who have filled out the specific procedure questionnaire.


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:10
French to English
me too please May 2, 2018

Tom in London wrote:

I'm just wondering how much time I am supposed to spend updating my profile so that I get the (presumed) advantages of this.

To help me, will someone kindly list the advantages? What will happen if I just leave my profile the way it is?

Briefly, please.


I'm interested too please! I just recently spruced up my profile in order to apply for a particularly interesting job posting here (after having an anonymous file with the bare minimum of info for years) so I'm rather peeved that my profile may not be 100% now, or that my settings may have changed. And I do have work on the go so I'm rather pressed for time.

Robin Levey wrote:

The assumption is clearly that highly focused specialists necessarily provide a “better” service than a “jack of all (or even just a few) trades”. But that is so often not the case.


Yes. I have listed many different fields, and I have provided clients with highly satisfactory texts in all of them. I find that marketing people often overestimate the extent to which they require "specialist" translators, because it's not rocket science. Getting the terminology right accounts for perhaps 10% of the time I take to complete the job, with the rest of my time taken up with making sure the text flows well and makes an impact. Only a wrong term sticks out like a sore thumb, whereas it's difficult to put your finger on why the text that doesn't make enough of an impact.
I do explain that I have solid researching skills in my profile, but this won't offset an automated thing giving other translators more weight during a search.


 
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..... (X)
Local time: 20:10
TOPIC STARTER
Profile completeness May 2, 2018

Kay Denney wrote:
Tom in London wrote:

I'm just wondering how much time I am supposed to spend updating my profile so that I get the (presumed) advantages of this.

To help me, will someone kindly list the advantages? What will happen if I just leave my profile the way it is?

Briefly, please.


I'm interested too please! I just recently spruced up my profile in order to apply for a particularly interesting job posting here (after having an anonymous file with the bare minimum of info for years) so I'm rather peeved that my profile may not be 100% now, or that my settings may have changed. And I do have work on the go so I'm rather pressed for time.


Filling out the required and encouraged sections of your profile (https://www.proz.com/settings/freelancer) is the best start. You can see your profile completeness percentage in the top left of this page: https://www.proz.com/settings/freelancer).

Client feedback also plays an important role in this search. Asking clients you have worked for to provide feedback will help to boost your ranking.

Answering some KudoZ questions in your language pairs and fields will also be beneficial to your positioning.

Screened professionals (CPN, Pools) also benefit from improved positioning in the search results.

If you run a search you will be able to see direct advice (particular to that search) in the left sidebar in the "Your position in this search" box. There is a link titled "View suggestions". This will provide specific advice for how to improve your positioning in that particular search.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:10
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Time May 2, 2018

I only found out about these apparently far-reaching changes because by pure chance I opened an email I might well have deleted (because I'm too busy to read absolutely everything).

I simply haven't got the time to keep up with all this. It's as much as I can do to scan this forum (but there also appear to be other related forums) and put a reminder in my diary to have a look at my profile when I have time (even though my profile is already 100% complete).

So please, Pr
... See more
I only found out about these apparently far-reaching changes because by pure chance I opened an email I might well have deleted (because I'm too busy to read absolutely everything).

I simply haven't got the time to keep up with all this. It's as much as I can do to scan this forum (but there also appear to be other related forums) and put a reminder in my diary to have a look at my profile when I have time (even though my profile is already 100% complete).

So please, Proz: when something major like this is introduced don't just open another discussion thread. Every time I see an email notifying me about a new discussion thread I tend to assume it's just something about CAT tools.

When you introduce a new innovation that changes the way we appear in searches PLEASE SEND US EACH A PERSONAL EMAIL.

My impression is that of the (presumably) many thousands of members, only a very few regularly keep track of these forums and some never consult them at all.

So whilst I think it's good that Proz has embarked on a path of innovation, it's important that *all* members be personally advised of each innovation when it occurs.

Thanks in advance.

[Edited at 2018-05-02 09:06 GMT]
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Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:10
French to English
Are those with fewer languages considered to be more proficient in those languages? May 2, 2018

If only having one specialist field makes you more of a specialist in that field, are those with fewer languages considered to be more proficient in those languages?

While I work in many different fields, I only translate from French, and I know I have a far better command of French than a lot of colleagues, having lived in France for over 30 years, devoting a lot of time to reading and learning about the language. When assessing test translations at the agency I used to work in,
... See more
If only having one specialist field makes you more of a specialist in that field, are those with fewer languages considered to be more proficient in those languages?

While I work in many different fields, I only translate from French, and I know I have a far better command of French than a lot of colleagues, having lived in France for over 30 years, devoting a lot of time to reading and learning about the language. When assessing test translations at the agency I used to work in, I realised that very few translators have as good a grasp as me. They would often simply pluck out the first suggested translation from Linguee, without thinking about whether the author has even used the right word in the source text.
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Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:10
French to English
thank you May 2, 2018

Kevin Dias wrote:

Kay Denney wrote:
Tom in London wrote:

I'm just wondering how much time I am supposed to spend updating my profile so that I get the (presumed) advantages of this.

To help me, will someone kindly list the advantages? What will happen if I just leave my profile the way it is?

Briefly, please.


I'm interested too please! I just recently spruced up my profile in order to apply for a particularly interesting job posting here (after having an anonymous file with the bare minimum of info for years) so I'm rather peeved that my profile may not be 100% now, or that my settings may have changed. And I do have work on the go so I'm rather pressed for time.


Filling out the required and encouraged sections of your profile (https://www.proz.com/settings/freelancer) is the best start. You can see your profile completeness percentage in the top left of this page: https://www.proz.com/settings/freelancer).

Client feedback also plays an important role in this search. Asking clients you have worked for to provide feedback will help to boost your ranking.

Answering some KudoZ questions in your language pairs and fields will also be beneficial to your positioning.

Screened professionals (CPN, Pools) also benefit from improved positioning in the search results.

If you run a search you will be able to see direct advice (particular to that search) in the left sidebar in the "Your position in this search" box. There is a link titled "View suggestions". This will provide specific advice for how to improve your positioning in that particular search.


Thank you for these tips.
I think I'd have to answer about a trillion Kudoz questions for that to help me, given how much of a headstart others have, and I've read enough here to put me off even trying, but I shall take a look at the other things when I have a bit more time on my hands.


 
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ProZ Find™ (new freelancer directory) released in alpha stage. Feedback sought.






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