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ProZ Find™ (new freelancer directory) released in alpha stage. Feedback sought.
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:39
Member (2008)
Italian to English
I don't think so May 2, 2018

Kay Denney wrote:

If only having one specialist field makes you more of a specialist in that field, are those with fewer languages considered to be more proficient in those languages?

While I work in many different fields, I only translate from French, and I know I have a far better command of French than a lot of colleagues, having lived in France for over 30 years, devoting a lot of time to reading and learning about the language. When assessing test translations at the agency I used to work in, I realised that very few translators have as good a grasp as me. They would often simply pluck out the first suggested translation from Linguee, without thinking about whether the author has even used the right word in the source text.


I don't think so. Personally I only offer Italian to English (even though I am perfectly bilingual, I don't offer English to Italian).

I often see translators who claim to be able to translate from/to a bewildering array of languages. I assume they're not telling the truth and that they are probably very unreliable in all of them.

Your second point is a very good one. Proz should have some way of giving prominence to translators who may have great expertise and experience, but are new to this platform and are probably much better than many long-time Proz members.

It would be counterproductive for Proz itself to force new members to set off on a long slog trying to accumulate Kudoz points etc. Surely that would be a deterrent to anyone thinking of becoming a member?

[Edited at 2018-05-02 09:40 GMT]


 
..... (X)
..... (X)
Local time: 14:39
TOPIC STARTER
@Kay May 2, 2018

Kay Denney wrote:

If only having one specialist field makes you more of a specialist in that field, are those with fewer languages considered to be more proficient in those languages?

While I work in many different fields, I only translate from French, and I know I have a far better command of French than a lot of colleagues, having lived in France for over 30 years, devoting a lot of time to reading and learning about the language. When assessing test translations at the agency I used to work in, I realised that very few translators have as good a grasp as me. They would often simply pluck out the first suggested translation from Linguee, without thinking about whether the author has even used the right word in the source text.


Hi Kay,

As with fields of expertise, the new search provides advantages to those who are more specialized in their working language pairs. For example, if the search is English to Spanish, a translator who has one language pair of English to Spanish will have an advantage over a translator who has 8 language pairs and English to Spanish is their 8th ranked pair.

Kay Denney wrote:
Thank you for these tips.
I think I'd have to answer about a trillion Kudoz questions for that to help me, given how much of a headstart others have, and I've read enough here to put me off even trying, but I shall take a look at the other things when I have a bit more time on my hands.


One of the major changes of this new search is that the ranking benefit of KudoZ points are capped (at an attainable level). That is, after a certain number of points, one receives no extra boost in directory positioning.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:39
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Thanks- May 2, 2018

Thanks Kevin - just read your replies, which seem to be reassuring.

 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 06:39
French to English
thank you again! May 2, 2018

Kevin Dias wrote:

Kay Denney wrote:

If only having one specialist field makes you more of a specialist in that field, are those with fewer languages considered to be more proficient in those languages?

While I work in many different fields, I only translate from French, and I know I have a far better command of French than a lot of colleagues, having lived in France for over 30 years, devoting a lot of time to reading and learning about the language. When assessing test translations at the agency I used to work in, I realised that very few translators have as good a grasp as me. They would often simply pluck out the first suggested translation from Linguee, without thinking about whether the author has even used the right word in the source text.


Hi Kay,

As with fields of expertise, the new search provides advantages to those who are more specialized in their working language pairs. For example, if the search is English to Spanish, a translator who has one language pair of English to Spanish will have an advantage over a translator who has 8 language pairs and English to Spanish is their 8th ranked pair.

Kay Denney wrote:
Thank you for these tips.
I think I'd have to answer about a trillion Kudoz questions for that to help me, given how much of a headstart others have, and I've read enough here to put me off even trying, but I shall take a look at the other things when I have a bit more time on my hands.


One of the major changes of this new search is that the ranking benefit of KudoZ points are capped (at an attainable level). That is, after a certain number of points, one receives no extra boost in directory positioning.


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 06:39
Member
English to Italian
Is the search by keywords working? May 2, 2018

Kevin Dias wrote:

This is why a few years ago I founded TM-Town and started working on a way to search for service providers based on the terminology they worked with and were most familiar with. The first generation of this idea is TM-Town's Nakōdo search which allows an outsourcer or end client to search a portion of the text or terms they need translated - with the results being the service providers with the most experience in that terminology.

ProZ Find is the next iteration of this idea, and is a hybrid of sorts. While some outsourcers appreciated the concept of the Nakōdo search, it was a little too different/radical for others. ProZ Find seeks to bridge this gap. Accommodating the traditional concept of a directory search (with traditional search parameters) while still providing the power of a deep terminology search.

In the first few weeks outsourcers are already making use of this terminology search functionality. 7.5% of searches include a keyword(s) query (only 1.4% of searches in the old directory included a keyword search). I expect this number to rise over time as outsourcers become more accustomed to this new search tool. For comparison 30.7% of searches include a field of expertise.

In conclusion I would counter that this new search system is moreso founded on the view that what constitutes a “better filter” is looking at the terminology a translator has experience in / is familiar with.


Considering the fact several things so far didn't seem to work as expected, but have been spotted by people because easily verifiable (e.g. not appearing in a search with pairs, fields, etc. in which you should definitely appear), how can we be sure the "terminology search functionality" is actually working?

Just to make an example, I tried to do a search for EN>IT, specialization gaming, and I'm there at the top (as I was in the "old" directory search). Then I tried the same search, adding two keywords which I know are there, and, lo and behold, I am third... although I'm the only one with those exact keywords listed in the search results, with 3 occurrences (info which, by the way, I think should NOT be shown to the public...).


 
Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:39
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Ranking benefit of KudoZ points May 2, 2018

Kevin Dias wrote:

One of the major changes of this new search is that the ranking benefit of KudoZ points are capped (at an attainable level). That is, after a certain number of points, one receives no extra boost in directory positioning.


Will there be a way to find out when earning more KudoZ points no longer provides that boost in directory positioning?


 
Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 06:39
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Kudoz vs. WWAs May 3, 2018

Michele Fauble wrote:

Kevin Dias wrote:

One of the major changes of this new search is that the ranking benefit of KudoZ points are capped (at an attainable level). That is, after a certain number of points, one receives no extra boost in directory positioning.


Will there be a way to find out when earning more KudoZ points no longer provides that boost in directory positioning?


Hi Michele,

Why do you think Kudoz points should not boost the ranking in a directory?
What do you think what should be the most important "boosting criteria" in directory ranking?

1) Do you know that ranking based on WWAs can be pretty controversial? For example in medical translations most clients do not want to reveal whom they are working with (due to business secrecy). This means that those who are in the medical directory usually do not get their reviews in medical translations but in other fields. But probably this is the same when it comes to law or investment/securities, chemistry, nuclear sci etc.

2) A WWA may have nothing to do with the selected field/specialization.
That's why it should not influence the ranking.

Why anybody think that WWAs have to do with a selected specialization?
Nobody can check for what kind of fields, for what volumes a translator received his/her reviews.
Maybe his/her thousands of reviews are coming from certificate or poem or simple very general texts and these reviews put this person to the top of the ranking in a totally different field or even in the same field but maybe he/she is just an intermediate-skilled translator who is doing very general translations in that field.
This will cause a lot of problems. Although clients will learn from these faults sooner or later.

3) Receiving Kudoz vs. getting WWAs. Answering Kudoz depends on you, getting WWAs depend on your clients. Who are your clients? What kind of fields are you working in? What is the policy of your clients? Do their policies allow to give WWAs?

So my question is:

Who would you hire?

A) A person who has thousands of WWAs (you don't know for what volumes and in what fields she/he received them or even if you know the field you don't know the difficulty of her/his translations (general vs. or highly technical text within the field)

or

B) a person who has many Kudoz points in the given field and you can even open those Kudoz questions to check the person' answer and contributions to the specific terms?

Bests,
Katalin
[Edited at 2018-05-03 07:13 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-05-03 10:38 GMT]


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:39
Member (2008)
Italian to English
WWAs May 3, 2018

I am *absolutely not* in the business of annoying my clients by asking them for a WWA rating.

Moreover if, like me, you mainly work for a small number of long-time, regular clients, you will probably have a very small number of WWAs.

In my particular case, the last WWA I have dates from more than 7 years ago.

How has this been taken into consideration?

And: how does Proz encourage outsourcers themselves to give WWA ratings?

[Edited at 2
... See more
I am *absolutely not* in the business of annoying my clients by asking them for a WWA rating.

Moreover if, like me, you mainly work for a small number of long-time, regular clients, you will probably have a very small number of WWAs.

In my particular case, the last WWA I have dates from more than 7 years ago.

How has this been taken into consideration?

And: how does Proz encourage outsourcers themselves to give WWA ratings?

[Edited at 2018-05-03 07:20 GMT]
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:39
Member (2004)
English to Italian
agree... May 3, 2018

Tom in London wrote:

I am *absolutely not* in the business of annoying my clients by asking them for a WWA rating.

Moreover if, like me, you mainly work for a small number of long-time, regular clients, you will probably have a very small number of WWAs.

In my particular case, the last WWA I have dates from more than 7 years ago.

How has this been taken into consideration?

And: how does Proz encourage outsourcers themselves to give WWA ratings?

[Edited at 2018-05-03 07:20 GMT]


this is going to be highly penalising for me...


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:39
Member (2008)
Italian to English
This will penalise the best May 3, 2018

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

this is going to be highly penalising for me...


Yes Giovanni: it looks as if this new prominence given to WWA will have the result that all the best, most experienced translators on Proz - those who don't need to be working for lots of new clients all the time - will be heavily penalised.

It seems that Proz is going to be relying more and more on algorhythms that are based on misconceptions of who its own members are and how we work.

I don't even have time, usually, to follow these discussions. And yet it's only by doing so that we even get to hear about these "innovations".

I hope outsourcers will pitch in here. They will be looking for the best translators and will want assurance that these algorhythms are not identifying the wrong ones.

[Edited at 2018-05-03 11:51 GMT]


 
Helen Shiner
Helen Shiner  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:39
German to English
+ ...
With Tom and Giovanni May 3, 2018

I do not collect WWAs for the very specific reason that to do so would infringe my clients' confidentiality. I do include some anonymised feedback on my profile, though this, of course, would not be picked up by Proz's algorithms.

I, and many others, have worked tremendously hard for my/our directory rankings via Kudoz. It means we have contributed extensively to the platform and to assisting our peers. What a shame that that now will cease to have so much value.

Boost
... See more
I do not collect WWAs for the very specific reason that to do so would infringe my clients' confidentiality. I do include some anonymised feedback on my profile, though this, of course, would not be picked up by Proz's algorithms.

I, and many others, have worked tremendously hard for my/our directory rankings via Kudoz. It means we have contributed extensively to the platform and to assisting our peers. What a shame that that now will cease to have so much value.

Boosting one's profile by collecting WWAs from friends, fellow translators, clients for whom one has translated fewer than 1,000 words, etc. is hardly indicative of anything much in terms of reliability, proficiency and expertise. I don't think I'd be very happy as an outsourcer to have a further obfuscation in assessing appropriate translators.

[Edited at 2018-05-03 12:45 GMT]
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Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 06:39
Member
English to Italian
"Specialization" May 3, 2018

Robin Levey wrote:

The assumption is clearly that highly focused specialists necessarily provide a “better” service than a “jack of all (or even just a few) trades”. But that is so often not the case.

...

What I’m getting at, is that if the list of “fields” used to set the directory filters is not a fair reflection of the real-world structure and content of the mass of documents out there waiting to be translated, then excessive focus on a translator’s “exclusive” skill in a single field will actually decrease his chance of winning a potentially lucrative job.



This also appear to extend to language pairs. If you select only one, it seems you get a "golden star",
saying you "specialize" in that pair, while, if you happen to work in two or more (including adding your native language for monolingual work...), then you're suddenly rubbish in all of them...
Likewise, if you only choose one specialism, then you get the "golden star", if you select up to three you get a "wooden star", if you select more, nothing (I guess).

In my opinion, compared to this, it would be much more sensible and fair (and logic) to allow prioritization for pairs and fields, letting users evaluate what their stronger/weaker fields/pairs are and class them accordingly, rather than flatly penalizing them if they don't concentrate on just one of them...


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:39
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Codification May 3, 2018

This all comes from trying to codify the skills and credentials of Proz members so that they can be processed by algorhythms. Everything you are, everything you do, and everything you care about as a translator is boiled down to a few bits of code.

 
Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:39
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
KudoZ points and directory ranking May 3, 2018

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

Michele Fauble wrote:

Kevin Dias wrote:

One of the major changes of this new search is that the ranking benefit of KudoZ points are capped (at an attainable level). That is, after a certain number of points, one receives no extra boost in directory positioning.


Will there be a way to find out when earning more KudoZ points no longer provides that boost in directory positioning?


Hi Michele,

Why do you think Kudoz points should not boost the ranking in a directory?



Bests,
Katalin
[Edited at 2018-05-03 07:13 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-05-03 10:38 GMT]


I think you may have misunderstood my post. I don't think that KudoZ points shouldn't boost the ranking in the directory. Kevin has said that after a certain number of points there will be no boost in directory positioning. Since continuing to answer KudoZ questions will provide no benefit to the answerer after a certain point, I would like to know when that point has been reached. Directory positioning is not the only reason I answer KudoZ questions, but doing so has put me on the first page in my language pairs.


 
Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 06:39
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Thanks for this information, Michele May 3, 2018

Michele Fauble wrote:

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

Michele Fauble wrote:

Kevin Dias wrote:

One of the major changes of this new search is that the ranking benefit of KudoZ points are capped (at an attainable level). That is, after a certain number of points, one receives no extra boost in directory positioning.


Will there be a way to find out when earning more KudoZ points no longer provides that boost in directory positioning?


Hi Michele,

Why do you think Kudoz points should not boost the ranking in a directory?



Bests,
Katalin
[Edited at 2018-05-03 07:13 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-05-03 10:38 GMT]


I think you may have misunderstood my post. I don't think that KudoZ points shouldn't boost the ranking in the directory. Kevin has said that after a certain number of points there will be no boost in directory positioning. Since continuing to answer KudoZ questions will provide no benefit to the answerer after a certain point, I would like to know when that point has been reached. Directory positioning is not the only reason I answer KudoZ questions, but doing so has put me on the first page in my language pairs.


Oh. Thank you for this new (at least new for me) information, Michele.
Yes, I misunderstood your post because I read only your sentence and missed to read Kevin's post.
I didn't read the whole thread.


 
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