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ProZ Find™ (new freelancer directory) released in alpha stage. Feedback sought.
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Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:16
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Sidenote on "more information" May 24, 2018

Henry wrote:
...But I think that if we consider more factors (more information is better, right?),...


Well, not necessarily.

Oftentimes a huge chunk of what seems to be "information", is really just noise, clutter, increasing the blurriness. I am a huge fan of the KISS approach.


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 07:16
Member
English to Italian
Translator associations accreditation May 25, 2018

Miguel Pérez wrote:

* It seems that being Certified PRO is heavily favoured in the algorithm. If we take a look at the most crowded pairs (English to and from any mainstream language, like French, German, Chinese, Spanish...), most if not all of the top ranked translators are Certified PRO. This may be because top translators tend to be Certified PRO (it's correlation, not causation). However, if we select more obscure specialty fields, all top translators are Certified PRO, even if they don't have any KudoZ points in the field, or WWAs, or they are not especially experienced. This seems causation, not correlation: being Certified PRO gives you the edge to be at the top, because you are Certified PRO. And I kind of get it: in order to be part of the CPN, one has to be a good translator. However, if this sentence is true:

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

You also stressed that ProZ.com is not a middleman, only a marketplace, therefore it does not interfere with the business relationship of its users.


then there could be a conflict of interests: an organization that is supposed to be independent is giving away badges, and this same organization is using these badges to favour some people.


Related to the above, and considering we are not being told how we are being ranked in clients' searches, I was wondering if and how accreditation with national translator associations is being factored in, as IMO (also in light of the respective "certification" procedures) that should be (much) more relevant and "valuable" than the CPN badge in terms of experience, translation ability and reliability toward clients.


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:16
Member (2004)
English to Italian
this... May 25, 2018

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Miguel Pérez wrote:

* It seems that being Certified PRO is heavily favoured in the algorithm. If we take a look at the most crowded pairs (English to and from any mainstream language, like French, German, Chinese, Spanish...), most if not all of the top ranked translators are Certified PRO. This may be because top translators tend to be Certified PRO (it's correlation, not causation). However, if we select more obscure specialty fields, all top translators are Certified PRO, even if they don't have any KudoZ points in the field, or WWAs, or they are not especially experienced. This seems causation, not correlation: being Certified PRO gives you the edge to be at the top, because you are Certified PRO. And I kind of get it: in order to be part of the CPN, one has to be a good translator. However, if this sentence is true:

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

You also stressed that ProZ.com is not a middleman, only a marketplace, therefore it does not interfere with the business relationship of its users.


then there could be a conflict of interests: an organization that is supposed to be independent is giving away badges, and this same organization is using these badges to favour some people.


Related to the above, and considering we are not being told how we are being ranked in clients' searches, I was wondering if and how accreditation with national translator associations is being factored in, as IMO (also in light of the respective "certification" procedures) that should be (much) more relevant and "valuable" than the CPN badge in terms of experience, translation ability and reliability toward clients.


+1


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 02:16
SITE FOUNDER
Really, Mirko? May 25, 2018

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
... I was wondering if and how accreditation with national translator associations is being factored in, as IMO (also in light of the respective "certification" procedures) that should be (much) more relevant and "valuable" than the CPN badge in terms of experience, translation ability and reliability toward clients.

I believe that certification is considered in the algorithm currently.

Interesting comment about CPN, though, from someone who would at least have a passing familiarily with the screening process. CPN is generally considered more thorough than the procedures of national translator associations... even by people who oversee such programs. And of course, this stands to reason, since CPN is built on top of such certifications, and generally considers a broader scope.

But which certification(s) are you thinking of in particular?


 
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 07:16
Member (2008)
English to Czech
SITE LOCALIZER
associations May 25, 2018

Henry Dotterer wrote:
CPN is generally considered more thorough than the procedures of national translator associations...

I think this comparison could be true for an associate membership, open more or less to everyone who is interested in joining the body, but not when it comes to certification exams (established for translators and interpreters by this or that association) or to other prerequisites for full membership (if an association distinguish between various membership levels).

Following Mirko's idea, why not reflect qualified memberships within CIOL, ITI, ATA for the purposes of the Find directory...?

[Edited at 2018-05-25 20:17 GMT]


Neil Ashby
 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:16
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
CPN screening - Really, Henry? May 26, 2018

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Interesting comment about CPN, though, from someone who would at least have a passing familiarily with the screening process. CPN is generally considered more thorough than the procedures of national translator associations...


Henry, really?
The way the CPN screening process assesses the person's translation ability cannot be compared to the certification process of ATA or ITI etc. The ATA's translation exams are conducted in a controlled environment, using preselected passages that are the same for all candidates and the exams are graded by highly qualified and well-trained professionals based on a predefined and detailed rubric. On the other hand, CPN only requires an online submission of any translation sample, which in turn is assessed by volunteers. I don't need to explain where the loopholes are in this, do I?


Neil Ashby
 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 07:16
Member
English to Italian
Really, Henry. May 26, 2018

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
... I was wondering if and how accreditation with national translator associations is being factored in, as IMO (also in light of the respective "certification" procedures) that should be (much) more relevant and "valuable" than the CPN badge in terms of experience, translation ability and reliability toward clients.

I believe that certification is considered in the algorithm currently.

Interesting comment about CPN, though, from someone who would at least have a passing familiarily with the screening process. CPN is generally considered more thorough than the procedures of national translator associations... even by people who oversee such programs. And of course, this stands to reason, since CPN is built on top of such certifications, and generally considers a broader scope.

But which certification(s) are you thinking of in particular?


I am thinking of accreditation from translator associations belonging to FIT.

I remember having to send them a copy of my degree, my ID, a declaration concerning pending charges, a declaration of citizenship, 3 letters from different clients stating I had translated X words during the previous Y years.

Then, of course, I had to pass an exam, translating a given amount of text selected by the association, in a given amount of time. I believe that, according to your own rules, we are not supposed to discuss CPN examination procedures publicly (right?), but we both know they differ quite a bit from the above...

Also, when you see users with a CPN badge in X>Y AND Y>X who make rather evident (non-native-like) mistakes in X, you can't help but wonder how they were able to pass the examination in the first place... (and I'm sure you already knew that, as there also are threads about this on the fora, with some users claiming to have reported similar cases to staff).


P.S. To avoid possible misunderstandings... I wasn't attacking the CPN program with my original suggestion, but, since it seems CPN membership is being given a very relevant weight in the new "Find" search, I was saying that IMO accreditation with translators associations should too (all the more), IF the main objective is to help clients narrow down their search for a good and reliable candidate for a project.

P.P.S. Why is the target="_blank" attribute not working anymore? Or is it just me?

[Edited at 2018-05-26 10:04 GMT]


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:16
Member (2004)
English to Italian
agree... May 26, 2018

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

I am thinking of accreditation from translator associations belonging to FIT.

I remember having to send them a copy of my degree, my ID, a declaration concerning pending charges, a declaration of citizenship, 3 letters from different clients stating I had translated X words during the previous Y years.

Then, of course, I had to pass an exam, translating a given amount of text selected by the association, in a given amount of time. I believe that, according to your own rules, we are not supposed to discuss CPN examination procedures publicly (right?), but we both know they differ quite a bit from the above...

Also, when you see users with a CPN badge in X>Y AND Y>X who make rather evident (non-native-like) mistakes in X, you can't help but wonder how they were able to pass the examination in the first place... (and I'm sure you already knew that, as there also are threads about this on the fora, with some users claiming to have reported similar cases to staff).


P.S. To avoid possible misunderstandings... I wasn't attacking the CPN program with my original suggestion, but, since it seems CPN membership is being given a very relevant weight in the new "Find" search, I was saying that IMO accreditation with translators associations should too (all the more), IF the main objective is to help clients narrow down their search for a good and reliable candidate for a project.

P.P.S. Why is the target="_blank" attribute not working anymore? Or is it just me?

[Edited at 2018-05-26 10:04 GMT]


Where's the Like button?


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 02:16
SITE FOUNDER
Find considers credentials from both CPN and local associations May 26, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
... CPN only requires an online submission of any translation sample...

I don't want to get off on tangent -- this is a thread about Find -- but to suggest that CPN screening is weak is misleading. I stand by my prior post:

CPN is generally considered more thorough than the procedures of national translator associations... even by people who oversee such programs. And of course, this stands to reason, since CPN is built on top of such certifications, and generally considers a broader scope.

What I mean by this is that we often start by confirming that someone has passed the ATA (or whatever association's) exam, and then do additional checks from the rich sources of data and client references available in the ProZ.com network.

And it is a fact that CPN's rigorous and standards-based approach to screening -- which is offered also in languages in which no association is able to perform testing -- has been validated by the industry. Many clients use it as a search criterion. And some from local associations have studied our methods (which we have freely shared.)

(Nothing confrontational here, by the way. When a person has not yet taken a national exam, we often encourage that. We have offered the ATA test, and CPD points, at ProZ.com events. We maintain the internet's most complete public compendium of local associations. And I have personally encouraged thousands of translators to join local associations over the years.)

Bringing it back to Find, and the algorithm, of course it makes sense for the algorithm to consider confirmed credentials from local associations.

I am going to make another post about this topic though...


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 02:16
SITE FOUNDER
Being a good translator vs. being an expert in a given field May 26, 2018

Just looking for general thoughts on this... any comments you care to share will be appreciated.

Let's say you were a client with a job in hand. Who would you want to hire?

- A person who is a very good translator in general?
- Or a person who is an expert in the field?

I know that this is an open-ended question, and I know that "it depends", and so on. But I'd like to hear how some of you think about this in general. Play along, if you would.


 
Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 07:16
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Please, clarify May 27, 2018

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Just looking for general thoughts on this... any comments you care to share will be appreciated.

Let's say you were a client with a job in hand. Who would you want to hire?

- A person who is a very good translator in general?
- Or a person who is an expert in the field?

I know that this is an open-ended question, and I know that "it depends", and so on. But I'd like to hear how some of you think about this in general. Play along, if you would.


Henry, nobody can answer these questions. It needs clarification.

1) What is the subject of your document? Is it a general text or a highly specialized text (highly medical, legal, financial, engineering etc.)?

2) What do you mean by an expert? A person with a diploma in a specific field or a person who is an expert in a specific field regardless he/she has a diploma in that field or not?

3) And what do you mean by "a very good translator in general"? A translator who is a very good translator at translating general texts (like a person's daily routine) or he/she is good at translating simple (not highly specialized) texts within a specific field?


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:16
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Both... May 27, 2018

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Just looking for general thoughts on this... any comments you care to share will be appreciated.

Let's say you were a client with a job in hand. Who would you want to hire?

- A person who is a very good translator in general?
- Or a person who is an expert in the field?

I know that this is an open-ended question, and I know that "it depends", and so on. But I'd like to hear how some of you think about this in general. Play along, if you would.


A person who is a good translator and an expert in the field...


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:16
Member (2008)
Italian to English
I agree with Giovanni May 27, 2018

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Just looking for general thoughts on this... any comments you care to share will be appreciated.

Let's say you were a client with a job in hand. Who would you want to hire?

- A person who is a very good translator in general?
- Or a person who is an expert in the field?

I know that this is an open-ended question, and I know that "it depends", and so on. But I'd like to hear how some of you think about this in general. Play along, if you would.


A person who is a good translator and an expert in the field...


I agree with Giovanni -both are required.

How many staff members at Proz are, or have been, translators?


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 02:16
SITE FOUNDER
Thanks, Katalin, Tom, Giovanni May 28, 2018

Katalin Szilárd wrote:
1) What is the subject of your document? Is it a general text or a highly specialized text (highly medical, legal, financial, engineering etc.)?

Thanks for "playing along" by responding, Katalin. One of things I wanted to see was whether or not this question would be asked. (It relates to a feature I'm considering.)

2) What do you mean by an expert? A person with a diploma in a specific field or a person who is an expert in a specific field regardless he/she has a diploma in that field or not?

I meant a person who is intimately familiar with the field (diploma or not).

3) And what do you mean by "a very good translator in general"? A translator who is a very good translator at translating general texts (like a person's daily routine) or he/she is good at translating simple (not highly specialized) texts within a specific field?

I meant a person who has shown themselves to be expert in *some* field, but not necessarily the field of the document in hand.

Thanks also for your reply ("both"), Tom and Giovanni.


 
Liviu-Lee Roth
Liviu-Lee Roth
United States
Local time: 02:16
Romanian to English
+ ...
From personal experience May 28, 2018

It is better to have an expert translator in the particular field, than a good translator, in general.
I cannot pretend to be a very good translator, in general, but I can affirm that I am an expert in the field of criminal law needed for the DOJ. I came across translations done by very good, certified translators, that misunderstood certain legal concepts (e.g. ”double jeopardy” translated as ”dual criminality”, which is wrong!)

My 2c
Lee

[Edited at 2018
... See more
It is better to have an expert translator in the particular field, than a good translator, in general.
I cannot pretend to be a very good translator, in general, but I can affirm that I am an expert in the field of criminal law needed for the DOJ. I came across translations done by very good, certified translators, that misunderstood certain legal concepts (e.g. ”double jeopardy” translated as ”dual criminality”, which is wrong!)

My 2c
Lee

[Edited at 2018-05-28 01:44 GMT]
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