| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | In case you've missed it (survey on perceptions and experience of ProZ.com) Thread poster: Barbara Carrara
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Christel Zipfel wrote:
Puzzled that a native English speaker of the ProZ's communication team uses ChatGPT to communicate in English...
Haven't you been paying attention, Christel? ChatGPT is the new, redesigned ProZ website's star member.
https://www.proz.com/profile/670924
It can do anything: answer KudoZ questions, write promotional blurbs, judge translation contests - anything at all.
Before too long it will be running the place and all our problems will be solved.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 13:49
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
Lately some are experimenting on the psychology of the desperate gambler, by placing everyone who accepted the project on a "Waiting manager approval" list (result is decided in advance, but it's fun from the PM side to play, and induce more participation). If you decide not to participate, you may get an email reminder (just like Facebook). Others send emails "waiting for client approval", because some translators will reduce their offered prices to expedite the result (psychology...). There are no proz postings about these practices. New translators think it's normal.
Being a victim of the forum rules (my roll-eyes post was removed 😊) I will give it another shot. What about most of the decent translators don't know about these practices because they actually know what they are doing and are just not confronted with it because they stay far away from this type of 'customers' and job offerings?
I mean there is a significant part of the translators that is struggling and keeps on struggling, I know that. But I like to compare this to the catering industry in my country. Probably half of the people who start a catering business don't make it, mainly because they are simply not fit to run a business. And that's very understandable, because everyone can start a catering business (meaning mainly a pub), just like everyone can become a translator.
If I read some of the requests for advice of newcomers on this forum who want to start as a freelancer I already facepalm after 2 sentences. It mainly comes down to this: you've either got it or you haven't. And yes, our industry is challenging, but that also applies to a lot of other industries. People who are fit for the job as freelancer will still make it.
For the record: not in my entire career I have even remotely been confronted with about every malpractice you have been describing so elaborately on these forums so far. I must be doing something good.
| | | | | Just to clarify - Proz's reaction to them was stronger than mine! | Feb 10 |
Lieven Malaise wrote: People who are fit for the job as freelancer will still make it.
I accepted your roll-eyes reaction, because I can't post evidence here that would make your eyes pop-out instead, and say "this guy's right!", so from your point of view I sound vague. I understand that.
I was not referring to the majority of agencies. What you're saying can be heard as "Local retailers didn't have it in them, because after 30 years in business, tax-exempt Amazon destroyed them".
A particular agency was banned from Proz once, (wow Proz! wow! your reaction was much stronger than mine!), and members were wondering why so many people (otherwise successful translators) still work for them 24/7. Because they managed to monopolize certain language pairs, and bully every disagreement or negotiation down to complete submission. You would be working for them too, if they held about 60% of your language pair and people in the homeland will work at any price. The Proz ban didn't affect them in the slightest. They also bought and destroyed mid-size excellent agencies, older members experienced it with great pain, because back then (previous decade) they were effectively deprived of their "good alternative solutions".
What you say is "ok, be this and that then", sure, but should I not point out outrageous practices by the major players? Especially when these practices now extent to psychological manipulation? I think we can agree on that.
Just a small note - try not to follow a general logic that sounds like "coal miners should learn to code" (in the context of "everyone should be extra-flexible"). It was abandoned when the miners, a few months later, told the fired journalists to "learn to code". And just 4 years ago, Hollywood writers were claiming that AI will never be able to write a script, because it doesn't possess intelligence. AI/MT is like a mirror - it doesn't need intelligence to copy your intelligence at zero cost. Thank you.
| | | | | Lieven vs. Lefteris | Feb 10 |
I must say I am neither with Lieven nor with Lefteris on that subject, but probably closer to Lieven: I think I know the agency Lefteris is talking about (or maybe another one with the same practices). They are huge, nasty, overly assertive, drive the rates down and exploit a young translator's anxiety with their bidding system. Being old and cynical, I simply quote my own price, which may be 2-3 times what they offer, and you know what? One out of three or four bids of mine gets accepted. Or I ... See more I must say I am neither with Lieven nor with Lefteris on that subject, but probably closer to Lieven: I think I know the agency Lefteris is talking about (or maybe another one with the same practices). They are huge, nasty, overly assertive, drive the rates down and exploit a young translator's anxiety with their bidding system. Being old and cynical, I simply quote my own price, which may be 2-3 times what they offer, and you know what? One out of three or four bids of mine gets accepted. Or I may accept their low price because 90% of their text is already in my TM or templates, and the remaining 10% requires no thinking on my part. At the bottom line, I give them 15-20 hours of my time every month, and that pays for food, utilities, social contributions and medical insurance, and the rest of my time is free for other work or leisure.
[Edited at 2024-02-10 19:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Well, it's a topic | Feb 10 |
Anton Konashenok wrote: and exploit a young translator's anxiety with their bidding system.
These practices should be pointed out on Proz, because they constitute a series of manipulative micro-abuses on an almost daily basis (the cumulative effect over years is significant!). While all workplaces in the developed world are taking serious steps to improve the psychological well-being of workers (regulatory enforced in most cases), some found a way around it: let's do it to the freelancers, nobody protects them, everything is considered "their choice, they signed up for it". The only way is for the community (Proz, are you listening?) to point out these practices, bring them to light. It doesn't hurt, and it justifies the membership price a lot more than ChatGPT-style fluffy seminars.
| | | | | ProZ is probably the wrong place | Feb 10 |
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
These practices should be pointed out on Proz
They ought to be exposed, but ProZ, by its very design, has a vested interest in not exposing them. It takes a trade union of sorts to expose them.
[Edited at 2024-02-10 20:50 GMT]
| | | | | Is it Door 1, Door 2, or Door 3? | Feb 10 |
Anton Konashenok wrote: which may be 2-3 times what they offer, and you know what? One out of three or four bids of mine gets accepted.
Right now, I have on my screen: Budget 723 USD. Initial posted offer is $95 (I swear on my life I'm not kidding you). Three have accepted it and are waiting. One offered $35 (way to go champ!). Another language is at $75 initial (same agency budget $723), two accepted it and are waiting, two offered $25, one of them was already declined (he probably thinks he wasn't cheap enough). In another project, they're all waiting to "win 5 bucks".
By using the word "win", they make the translator believe that it's not an exchange of work for money, it's a gift of dollars. Don't tell me this system is not like the "scratch" lotto tickets at gas stations.
Travel back in time 20 years and tell to anyone in the translation business about this system, they'll tell you nobody would ever accept it. You can't deny this, I remember people ready to stage a national revolution if anyone dared to offer them less than 0.11 (which was still half an agency's budget). At the time, I was actually telling translators to be more flexible in prices (yes, I understand the irony, I've been banging my head on the wall about this). But I assure you, it's been a mad riot in every project no matter how cheap, regardless of the amount, since around 2014. That is also how I know that the "rate list" on Proz is fake. At any rate, agencies are told by their inner voice "you must become rich", translators are told by the "Proz rate calculator" that "you must make just enough to survive". See the difference? You said it yourself, it "covers the bills". Signing off.
[Edited at 2024-02-10 23:01 GMT]
| | | | | PS. Your contribution was very valuable and thank you | Feb 10 |
.. with what you said here:
Anton Konashenok wrote: I simply quote my own price, which may be 2-3 times what they offer, and you know what? One out of three or four bids of mine gets accepted.
A lot of people won't listen to me, but they will listen to you. And next winter, they won't have to borrow money to pay their high energy bills in Europe, they won't have to feel ashamed living comfortable winters in their economy apartments etc. without having a second or a third job. By any ethical and pragmatic rule, they deserve most of the budget money anyway, not just "a small fraction of it". For that, I thank you.
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expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 12:49
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Thanks Barbara!
Although I've already expressed my "perceptions and experience" for several times, I answered this survey thinking of all my colleagues who, like me, have experienced all sorts of problems, from the most technical to the least technical.
My subscription ends on Monday and I'm very reluctant to renew it, for the reasons and explanations I have already given in other discussions.
I no longer expect anything from Proz, nor do I think that this survey is going to he... See more Thanks Barbara!
Although I've already expressed my "perceptions and experience" for several times, I answered this survey thinking of all my colleagues who, like me, have experienced all sorts of problems, from the most technical to the least technical.
My subscription ends on Monday and I'm very reluctant to renew it, for the reasons and explanations I have already given in other discussions.
I no longer expect anything from Proz, nor do I think that this survey is going to help us be heard. Is it?
And proof of that is how little I've participated in the site lately... I'm disappointed and I feel like we've never been heard.
[Edited at 2024-02-10 23:52 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Look closer to home? | Feb 11 |
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
Travel back in time 20 years and tell to anyone in the translation business about this system, they'll tell you nobody would ever accept it.
1. I’ve never worked for that agency but I know all about this system from reading about it repeatedly here on ProZ where apparently we don’t talk about such things!!
2. I was approached about 20 years ago by a newly formed Danish agency with a bidding system. I did of course tell them to do one. Clearly others didn’t, as the agency thrived. I have never been asked to bid again by anyone since.
3. The agency you are talking about took over an agency I work for two years ago. They’ve made some changes but they still pay me 19 cents a word. This is because the end-client insists on having me. I guess it’s a matter of who has the power.
I’m not saying some agencies don’t have despicable practices and that the market hasn’t got its challenges, but Lefteris you don’t have to work with that agency! 20 years is also plenty of time to find new customers and/or build a specialisation or reputation that makes you indispensable and gives you some bargaining power.
You seem intent on blaming the market and other translators, but have you thought about your own choices? What could you do to help yourself? Or even, should you find another industry?
| | | | Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:49
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Keep putting the message out there | Feb 11 |
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
The only way is for the community (Proz, are you listening?) to point out these practices, bring them to light. It doesn't hurt, and it justifies the membership price a lot more than ChatGPT-style fluffy seminars.
While Lefteris and I have our (well-documented) differences, this is an excellent point. Because freelancing is a bit of a, well, free-for-all, it is up to the community to highlight bad practices. That's one of the justifications for going back over the same topics again and again and again: newbies don't understand these issues.
For example, it is important that newcomers to the translation industry don't assume that the largest players are the best players. It's like being a supplier of food to Tesco: potentially there is a huge amount of business, but the quid pro quo for that is that margins will be wafer-thin. Conversely, if you can accept lower volumes then you should try for the high-end delicatessen in your local city, which will probably accept much higher prices for your produce.
Over the past several years I have been approached by several of the top 10 LSPs in the industry, and each time there has been something that has put me off. The largest LSP contacted me and wanted me to perform a full test and sign agreements before discussing rates. To put it another way, they wanted me to commit a significant amount of time before I could even establish whether it was an economically viable partnership. That kind of high-handedness was a red flag for me, so I withdrew.
Another one of the top five asked me to sign up last year, but when I set out my minimum expectations regarding rates they quietly withdrew. Another LSP insisted that I do an hour of unpaid training in a CAT tool. When I pointed out that I had been using that software for many years on a daily basis and was competent in its usage, they insisted the training session was absolutely necessary. That was a red flag for bureaucracy and box-ticking, so I declined to work with them because it suggested that they would take a similarly authoritarian "form over substance" approach to our business relationship. You could say that these are lucky escapes, but it's nothing to do with luck; it comes from taking a disciplined approach to selecting the people with whom you want to work.
The most recent LSP I have signed up with has acknowledged my rate, has not demanded a free test, has provided agreements for me to look at beforehand, and generally been reasonable and sensible during the onboarding process. Whether I get any work or not I don't know, but I think this is unlikely to end up being a major source of income for me. But, you know: no kicks, no goals.
The message we should be putting out there is this:
Not all LSPs or agencies are equal, and bigger does not mean better.
Will it change anything? I don't know but we should make the attempt. Earlier in the thread somebody said that about half of freelancers "get it" about half don't and never will. I would guess that something like a third of freelancers have a decent understanding of business basics already (either innate or learned). Another third don't know exactly what they're doing but are capable of learning, although they may not actually go through that process. A final third have no idea what they're doing, don't have the fundamental business and people skills to succeed, and really should be working as an employee somewhere.
Obviously the proportions of each type of freelancer are up for debate. Reading the scam threads, one feels that some people are sleepwalking through their professional lives without an ounce of common sense or caution (open up Google and type "translation scams" and you immediately get 3.5 million hits). But for every person who reports being taken for a ride, there are usually several who thank the thread for having highlighted the issue.
So that's what we should keep doing, without relying on ProZ.com management. Like Lieven, my experience of the translation industry and of working with agencies is very different to (and far more positive than) that of Lefteris. But the bottom-feeders and abusive clients are out there, and some of them are very large indeed.
Dan
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An agency offered me a cancellation fee last week after a small job was delayed.
The good agencies are out there still.
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I wasn't expressing a personal impasse. For example, if I write a strong announcement against "restaurants in the US" (and their terrible food) tomorrow, it doesn't mean that I'm expressing my own suffering. I haven't been in a restaurant for years to eat anything more than the cleanest salad (even that, rarely), because I've already had bad experiences years ago and an old, sensitive stomach. So if you see me protesting against restaurants, don't assume I also eat there. But if Proz were a rest... See more I wasn't expressing a personal impasse. For example, if I write a strong announcement against "restaurants in the US" (and their terrible food) tomorrow, it doesn't mean that I'm expressing my own suffering. I haven't been in a restaurant for years to eat anything more than the cleanest salad (even that, rarely), because I've already had bad experiences years ago and an old, sensitive stomach. So if you see me protesting against restaurants, don't assume I also eat there. But if Proz were a restaurant-eaters site, I'd be protesting regardless, pointing out what they do wrong.
As far as agencies etc., my language pair cannot sustain decent living expenses all by itself without submitting to predatory agencies. It's a small over-saturated market with an average local price in Greece of 2-3 cents per word (yup, that's what Greek agencies pay the Greeks). I remember a posting of a Greek interpreter about 20 years ago "they were paying me $40/hour, I thought it was too much to be true, so I didn't go" (client was stood up in Athens, and that was at a time American interpreters were paid $80-$90/hour). The situation/mentality will change only when Greece becomes a rich country (with this mentality, never).
My language pair currently is best to be experienced only by the position of the part-timer with only few, selective clients, unless one lives in Greece rent-free. I'm fully aware of this. I know what to do, I came from other industries. It doesn't mean that I won't protest against practices I consider at least unethical. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Ideas...? (because even AI is a bubble now) | Feb 11 |
I've done with all my obligations and now it's only myself to worry about (I described in a previous posting the years I had to support from 3 to 5 people). Normally, while I'm thinking "what gear do I need to chase and photograph tornadoes in April" (the only spectacle in the Midwest), I should also be thinking "what new is there, while everyone else is focusing on AI"?
Because even AI is in bubble territory now. Everyone is baptizing their business "AI", and it's just chatty langu... See more I've done with all my obligations and now it's only myself to worry about (I described in a previous posting the years I had to support from 3 to 5 people). Normally, while I'm thinking "what gear do I need to chase and photograph tornadoes in April" (the only spectacle in the Midwest), I should also be thinking "what new is there, while everyone else is focusing on AI"?
Because even AI is in bubble territory now. Everyone is baptizing their business "AI", and it's just chatty language models and brainless data collectors in most cases. Tons of over-glorified "AI" companies will rise and then fall. Meanwhile, something legitimate and useful is being born, to make me passionate about it again, and I'm too old to see it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:49
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Here's what Chat GPT says | Feb 11 |
ProZ.com is a widely recognized platform in the translation industry, serving as a hub for translators, interpreters, clients, agencies, and other language professionals. Perceptions of ProZ.com vary depending on the individual's role and experience within the translation community.
Translators and Interpreters:
Positive Perceptions: Many translators and interpreters view ProZ.com positively as it offers a platform to network, find job opportunities, access trainin... See more ProZ.com is a widely recognized platform in the translation industry, serving as a hub for translators, interpreters, clients, agencies, and other language professionals. Perceptions of ProZ.com vary depending on the individual's role and experience within the translation community.
Translators and Interpreters:
Positive Perceptions: Many translators and interpreters view ProZ.com positively as it offers a platform to network, find job opportunities, access training resources, and engage with peers through forums and discussion groups.
Negative Perceptions: Some professionals may have negative perceptions due to the competitiveness of the platform, the prevalence of low-paying jobs, or concerns about the quality of clients and job postings.
Clients:
Positive Perceptions: Clients often appreciate the convenience of finding qualified language professionals quickly and easily on ProZ.com. They may also value the feedback and credentials visible on translators' profiles.
Negative Perceptions: Some clients may have concerns about the quality of translations or the reliability of translators found through the platform, particularly if they've had negative experiences in the past.
Agencies:
Positive Perceptions: Agencies may see ProZ.com as a valuable resource for finding freelancers with specific language skills or expertise, potentially streamlining their recruitment process.
Negative Perceptions: Some agencies may be wary of relying solely on ProZ.com due to concerns about the quality of translators, pricing transparency, or the platform's fee structure.
Language Industry Professionals:
Positive Perceptions: Professionals such as project managers, localization specialists, and language service providers may view ProZ.com positively for its role in facilitating connections and collaborations within the industry.
Negative Perceptions: Some may criticize ProZ.com for contributing to the commodification of translation services or for promoting a race-to-the-bottom mentality regarding pricing.
Overall, while ProZ.com is widely utilized and appreciated within the translation industry for its networking and job-finding capabilities, perceptions can vary based on individual experiences and priorities. It's important for users to approach the platform with a discerning eye, carefully vetting clients and opportunities to ensure they align with their professional standards and goals.
User
Understanding perceptions of ProZ.com by its users
ChatGPT
Perceptions of ProZ.com among its users can vary significantly based on individual experiences, roles within the translation industry, and specific needs. Here are some common perceptions expressed by different types of users:
Translators and Interpreters:
Positive Perceptions: Many translators and interpreters appreciate ProZ.com for its vast database of job postings, networking opportunities, and resources such as forums, glossaries, and training materials. They find it helpful for building their client base, improving their skills, and connecting with colleagues.
Negative Perceptions: Some translators may have concerns about the competitiveness of the platform, the prevalence of low-paying jobs, or the lack of quality control over clients and job postings. They may also find the membership fees and associated costs prohibitive.
Clients:
Positive Perceptions: Clients often view ProZ.com positively as a convenient platform for finding qualified language professionals quickly. They appreciate the ability to review translators' profiles, feedback from previous clients, and credentials, which can help them make informed hiring decisions.
Negative Perceptions: Some clients may have reservations about the quality of translations or the reliability of translators found through ProZ.com. They may encounter challenges in filtering through a large pool of translators to find the right fit for their specific project needs.
Language Service Providers (Agencies, Localization Companies):
Positive Perceptions: Language service providers may see ProZ.com as a valuable resource for recruiting freelance translators with specialized skills or language combinations. They appreciate the platform's ability to streamline the recruitment process and help them find qualified linguists efficiently.
Negative Perceptions: Some language service providers may have concerns about the quality of translators available on ProZ.com or the lack of transparency in pricing. They may also find it challenging to differentiate themselves from other agencies when posting jobs or seeking collaborators.
Industry Professionals (Project Managers, Localization Specialists, etc.):
Positive Perceptions: Industry professionals often view ProZ.com as a useful tool for networking, staying updated on industry trends, and accessing resources such as glossaries and forums. They find it helpful for connecting with potential collaborators, sharing knowledge, and solving linguistic challenges.
Negative Perceptions: Some industry professionals may criticize ProZ.com for promoting a race-to-the-bottom mentality in terms of pricing or for facilitating the commodification of translation services. They may also encounter spam or unsolicited messages from users promoting their services.
Overall, while ProZ.com serves as a valuable platform for many users within the translation industry, perceptions can vary widely based on individual experiences and priorities. Users should approach the platform with discernment, carefully evaluating opportunities and interactions to ensure they align with their professional goals and standards. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » In case you've missed it (survey on perceptions and experience of ProZ.com) | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
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