| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | In case you've missed it (survey on perceptions and experience of ProZ.com) Thread poster: Barbara Carrara
|
|---|
| Translation mastermind | Feb 7 |
Christopher Schröder wrote:
There’s also the Translation Mastermind group on Facebook, a paid thing .
I am a member and I can assure you that I did not pay, or am I missing something?
| | | | Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:32
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Andrew Morris wrote:
Where you ARE right is that healthy communities tend not to welcome sarcasm, vindictiveness and cynicism, finding such qualities rather toxic. As you so ably and consistently demonstrate.
While I defend Andrew's right to comment robustly, I'm not sure this will end any better than the notorious 2019 thread. (Which, despite copious and even - dare I say it - heartfelt feedback from forum members, apparently failed to induce the powers-that-be to take any action to improve the operation of the ProZ.com forum, which in turn is one of the problems that has been repeatedly pointed out to management by said forum members: nothing ever happens.)
Dan
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 10:32
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| it's just unprofessionalism | Feb 7 |
Andrew Morris wrote:
Well as a longstanding member of the human race, I find your sense of inappropriateness and ability to take offence highly selective, which could in itself be considered offensive.
No. Your way of communicating is another example of the lack of the concept of "professionalism" at Proz.
As a member of a BUSINESS, you will NEVER be aggressive with CLIENTS, even if they are. Because they pay your rent (or your Porsche).
You'll rather try to understand what problem they are experiencing and how you can solve it. This is called customer care.
[Bearbeitet am 2024-02-07 09:27 GMT]
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 10:32
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Zea_Mays wrote:
As a member of a BUSINESS, you will NEVER be aggressive with CLIENTS, even if they are.
Well, I don't think you should tolerate clients that behave aggressively, but I get your point. If you want to survive or thrive as a business you might want to tolerate certain behaviour that you wouldn't necessarily tolerate in your private life. Andrew seems to disagree.
Apart from that it seems a bit weird to call sarcasm and criticism toxic. The opposite - slick business environments with constantly smiling and positive people - seems more toxic to me, because they are far away from reality. There can't be improvement without feedback, and sarcastic feedback is also feedback.
[Bijgewerkt op 2024-02-07 10:00 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
Turns out the ProZ forum is no longer moderated by Andrew Morris and membership of Translation Mastermind is now free. I stand corrected. My original point about this forum not being the only source of feedback to ProZ Towers stands.
Apologies also for my catty remarks. I shouldn't have poked the hornet's nest.
I would however vigorously defend my right to be cynical about those who seek to make money from what their peers give away for free.
| | | |
Christopher Schröder wrote:
membership of Translation Mastermind is now free.
I am a member since 2019, but I never paid, not sure when or if it was not free.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule |
at the very beginning... if I remember correctly, Andrew was accused of monetising his previous non-revenue generating assets... 
Angie Garbarino wrote:
I am a member since 2019, but I never paid, not sure when or if it was not free.
| | |
|
|
|
| Why don't you just ask?! | Feb 7 |
Christopher Schröder wrote:
Turns out the ProZ forum is no longer moderated by Andrew Morris and membership of Translation Mastermind is now free. I stand corrected. My original point about this forum not being the only source of feedback to ProZ Towers stands.
Then you wouldn't have to make assumptions... "When you assume, you make an a$$ out of you and me." comes to mind...
TM is a paid group that is 39 EUR per year. But it is free for ProZ.com Plus & Premium members.
Andrew was the admin until the end of the year, then Susan took over as admin, and I help out with tech and post series.
Now what I don't know is what TM has to do with the ProZ survey. It clearly says: "Your thoughtful answers will help the ProZ.com team improve aspects of the ProZ.com experience."
| | | | | Maybe a bit of a digression | Feb 7 |
Tanya Quintieri wrote:
Now what I don't know is what TM has to do with the ProZ survey. It clearly says: "Your thoughtful answers will help the ProZ.com team improve aspects of the ProZ.com experience."
I think the whole TM/Mr Morris/money discussion was an offshoot from the mention of the larger, general Proz group on FB.
And that was mentioned because it's another place where folk discuss this website. Another place in addition to here. Where, the perception is, that much is said, but little is actually done.
Which is why I have to confess that on reading your assertion "It clearly says....", I chuckled wryly to myself, thinking, yup, lots gets said, sometimes even clearly, but is that enough?
| | | | | On the survey, on the social media groups, and on the forums | Feb 7 |
Hi all,
First, thanks to everyone who has participated in the survey so far. The survey is exactly what it says it is, a survey on perceptions and experience of ProZ.com. Surveys like this have been done in the past by different means. This one is directed at those who already use the site, and also those who may not be using the site, hence its diffusion on social media and other places off site.
I notice some confusion around the Facebook groups, so I'll take a momen... See more Hi all,
First, thanks to everyone who has participated in the survey so far. The survey is exactly what it says it is, a survey on perceptions and experience of ProZ.com. Surveys like this have been done in the past by different means. This one is directed at those who already use the site, and also those who may not be using the site, hence its diffusion on social media and other places off site.
I notice some confusion around the Facebook groups, so I'll take a moment to clarify.
There are two main ProZ.com-run groups on Facebook. The first is a general group, https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProZcom , which was started around 14 years ago. Anyone who wants to can ask to join. Like ProZ.com, it is designed as a space for language professionals to come together in a positive, results-oriented manner. The rules there are the same as on the ProZ.com site. So if you are on Facebook, you can interact with other professionals in a professional manner there if you choose. As of this writing, the group has just over 71,000 members.
The other group is called Translation Mastermind, https://www.facebook.com/groups/thetranslationmastermind , and was started back in 2016 by Andrew Morris. The focus there is a bit more narrow (see the "About" section of the group). Membership in Translation Mastermind is paid, but is also included in ProZ.com Plus membership, so if you are a Plus subscriber and are on Facebook and want to collaborate with colleagues seeking to improve their business, their mindset, their contact with direct clients, etc., you can join for free. I would say the atmosphere there is, in line with what ProZ.com seeks to support, highly positive and results-oriented.
While I'm at it, ProZ.com also runs a LinkedIn group, https://www.linkedin.com/groups/138763/ to which any language professional can apply, and the purpose of which is the same as the general Facebook group. At the moment, this group has 136,000 members.
Why the groups and why not have everything on ProZ.com in the forums? The ProZ.com team are what we'll call platform agnostic, in that it doesn't really matter what the platform is, if there is a way for the team to deliver on the ProZ.com mission, they'll use it (or at least try to!). If language professionals can benefit from that where they are, and ProZ.com can go to them, it will.
Experience has shown, in the above mentioned groups for example, that when more effort is put into providing the right atmosphere, the place suddenly becomes much more useful for everyone.
With the ProZ.com forums in particular, here's some data you may, or may not, find interesting. In January, there were 1,999 forum posts made, among 389 people posting. To a great extent, those posts are in line with the purpose of the forums: asking for and providing help. But if even a small percentage of those 389 people are not collaborating in a constructive, results-oriented manner, and are also posting a higher percentage of that 1,999 total of posts to boot, the atmosphere of the forums changes, and becomes more "dangerous" to others who would seek or provide help here. I feel relatively confident in saying that there could be a lot more collaboration happening in the forums if those who are following along passively at the moment were to have less of a sensation that posting to the forums will be rewarded with a bag full of snark. You can get or give that almost everywhere else on the internet. There is no shortage of "free speech" zones out there, but ProZ.com is not one of those zones, as outlined in its rules and its limited scope: https://www.proz.com/scope
The responsibility for ensuring that atmosphere is on the ProZ.com team, of course. Changes in this can be expected moving forward.
Returning to the topic, once again thank you to everyone who has completed the survey and to those who have helped spread the word. The input so far has been highly constructive.
Jared ▲ Collapse
| | | |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I think the whole TM/Mr Morris/money discussion was an offshoot from the mention of the larger, general Proz group on FB.
And that was mentioned because it's another place where folk discuss this website. Another place in addition to here. Where, the perception is, that much is said, but little is actually done.
Which is why I have to confess that on reading your assertion "It clearly says....", I chuckled wryly to myself, thinking, yup, lots gets said, sometimes even clearly, but is that enough?
Well, to clarify, TM is not a ProZ.com asset. Susan is a part-time ProZ.com staff member (as am I), and she runs TM as a sister-space (with my help). But we have our own rules in TM, our own objective, our own approach to community. The fact that we both joined the ProZ.com team doesn't change that. We'd still be doing TM even if ProZ.com hadn't hired us (our roles at ProZ.com are different from what we do at TM). The TM-ProZ.com handshake is just one of the cool perks for Plus and Premium members.
Now, about the ProZ.com Facebook group and the survey — I'm scratching my head trying to connect the dots here. This survey's making rounds everywhere, not just on Facebook. ProZ.com is present all over the internet — Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, you name it, plus the good old newsletter and event billboards. What's the issue with that?
As for "lot's gets said"... yeah, loud and clear. It's all over the forum. That's exactly why Susan's on board. She's the new Communications Coordinator, and this survey is her opening act. Throwing her to the wolves with all that pent-up steam wouldn't be playing fair, would it? It's not exactly a bed of roses in here sometimes.
So, how about we give Susan, the survey, and ProZ.com a fair shot at turning things around? We can't rewrite history, but we sure can script a better now and future for this community. That's the whole point of the survey.
On a personal note, I struggle to understand the negativity directed towards Andrew. He's one of the finest people I know and I'm proud to consider him a friend. He charged for the TM membership in the same way that ProZ.com charges for the membership here. He put in a lot of hours every week and it was only fair that he was paid for his work. Nobody was forced to take his offer. Those who did have not regretted it. There is plenty of room for different strokes for different folks. No reason to throw shade at different paths or values. It's all about finding your tribe and what clicks for you, free or paid.
| | |
|
|
|
Tanya Quintieri wrote:
On a personal note, I struggle to understand the negativity directed towards Andrew. He's one of the finest people I know and I'm proud to consider him a friend. He charged for the TM membership in the same way that ProZ.com charges for the membership here.
If I remember correctly, Andrew shared his advice in a group of outstanding translators and when the group got really big, he decided to open a different one where he would share his advice for a fee. Hence the monetisation accusation. Personally, I couldn't care less. I could not join because I was blocked by him. But this is a completely different story and very OT. HTH.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:32
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| No, it's not enough | Feb 7 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
"It clearly says....", I chuckled wryly to myself, thinking, yup, lots gets said, sometimes even clearly, but is that enough?
And remember please, site staff who are engaged in this thread, that this is not a charity, that I and many others pay a substantial sum for the service, of which the forum is a part.
One aspect of the problem is that this is a site essentially for people who have a way with words, and that facility with language extends to site staff. The result is always a lot of plausible verbiage from the ProZ.com side when forum members get annoyed and start pointing out the site's many shortcomings. It's not enough.
As Charlie points out, it's all very well to say "clearly" this and "clearly" that, but nothing seems to change. Ever. Ultimately good intentions aren't enough; outcomes are what matter. If we judge purely by outcomes viewed from the perspective of the customer (us), you (collectively) just don't seem to be very effective.
That may be hard for you to hear, and no doubt you feel that there are reasons why you haven't been able to give us some (any?) of the things we have asked for, but is not our job to make you feel good.
Finally, like it or not, snark, irony, satirism and other quasi-rhetorical devices are a part of the ebb and flow of adult human discourse, particularly when one party is faced with what they believe to be excuses, disingenuousness, obduracy, or just plain incompetence on the part of another. Provided that it doesn't devolve into abuse or harassment, I don't have a problem with that.
Regards,
Dan
| | | |
[quote]Dan Lucas wrote:
And remember please, site staff who are engaged in this thread, that this is not a charity, that I and many others pay a substantial sum for the service, of which the forum is a part.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that we don't get to make the rules. There have been threads that are absolutely horrendous. It's a ProZ.com venue and members pay for admission. Not for shares. This is not an official ProZ.com answer, but one that needs saying. I understand you're frustrated. I am, too.
However, I am using the energy unleashed by frustration to press for changes by doing, not by verbally abusing or ridiculing people. And yes, I feel personally attacked when e.g. someone makes assumptions on why I or anyone else diversifies. Just to name an example from this one thread. It's none of anyone's business. Nobody here has a right to personally attack or judge anyone.
One aspect of the problem is that this is a site essentially for people who have a way with words, and that facility with language extends to site staff. The result is always a lot of plausible verbiage from the ProZ.com side when forum members get annoyed and start pointing out the site's many shortcomings. It's not enough.
As Charlie points out, it's all very well to say "clearly" this and "clearly" that, but nothing seems to change. Ever. Ultimately good intentions aren't enough; outcomes are what matter. If we judge purely by outcomes viewed from the perspective of the customer (us), you (collectively) just don't seem to be very effective.
Again, I hear you. ProZ.com hears you. We're working on solutions. You can't change an infrastructure that has grown for 25 years over night. Nor change processes in a jiffy.
That may be hard for you to hear, and no doubt you feel that there are reasons why you haven't been able to give us some (any?) of the things we have asked for, but is not our job to make you feel good.
I've only been around as ProZ.com staff for a few weeks, so I can't really receive that, nor do I have to. And I can't really speak to the reasons either. What I do know is that it isn't a lack of ability or care — the team works hard and with passion. But there have to better ways to communicate, from both sides. We're working on that.
Finally, like it or not, snark, irony, satirism and other quasi-rhetorical devices are a part of the ebb and flow of adult human discourse, particularly when one party is faced with what they believe to be excuses, disingenuousness, obduracy, or just plain incompetence on the part of another. Provided that it doesn't devolve into abuse or harassment, I don't have a problem with that.
Odd... I would say a lot of what happens could be seen as abusive. There's subtle and not so subtle bullying, harassment, and uncalled-for behavior. I don't experience the same in other communities I am part of.
The forum certainly isn't a welcoming space for those new to the profession or our community. And that's a real shame. Because we have so much to learn from each other. We're generally smart people. With the veterans among us having so much experience to share. Yet a few "choose violence" and poison what could be a nurturing, inspiring, supportive space... It's sad, really.
Personally, I am tired of back-stabbing keyboard warriors. As someone who has been to countless events for translators, I can confirm that those who bicker the loudest and lack respect/decency online fail to look one in the eye when standing face-to-face. So all of this bickering and hinting and trying to be 'smart' is useless and a waste of everyone's time and energy. As you say, we have a way with words. Perhaps we should put it to better use.
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » In case you've missed it (survey on perceptions and experience of ProZ.com) | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
| | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
