| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Mud slinging on Kudoz questions Thread poster: Berni Armstrong
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Jacek Krankowski (X) 
English to Polish
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| No matter which variety of English you speak... | Apr 29, 2002 |
The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks
than the British or Americans.
On the other hand, the French eat a lot of fat and also suffer
fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.
The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart
attacks than the British or Americans.
The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and also suffer
fewer heart at... See more The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks
than the British or Americans.
On the other hand, the French eat a lot of fat and also suffer
fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.
The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart
attacks than the British or Americans.
The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and also suffer
fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans
Conclusion.
Eat & drink what you like. It\'s speaking English that kills you.
(From: http://www.translatortips.com/
Contributed by Dov Paolo)
About the native speaker fallacy:
In 1999, the US Department of Housing and Urban Development ordered a “creole” translation of an 8-page brochure. The text was erroneously translated into a Jamaican-style patois that started \"Yuh as a rezedent ave di rights ahn di rispansabilities to elp mek yuh HUD-asisted owzing ah behta owme fi yuh ahn yuh fambily”. \"Total garbage, of no use to anyone in the Caribbean,\" said a Jamaican embassy spokesman in Washington. All Jamaican government documents are printed in standard English. “We find this extremely offensive,” he added.
(www.iti.org.uk)
Conclusion:
If you do not know what you are doing, being a native speaker will not help you.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-29 16:17 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | pschmitt
Local time: 04:00
German to English
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What I wrote earlier was merely to point out the current “gun law”, which goes widely unmonitored (or so it seems) and is hardly ever interfered with in a general situation where it’s merely the usual suspects who are wielding the law and quoting rules and regulations (to an extent where anybody who has the audacity to disagree is threatened with being expelled from the site). I don’t think ProZ is doing itself a favour by letting those vigilantes take over, and I think a lot of forum th... See more What I wrote earlier was merely to point out the current “gun law”, which goes widely unmonitored (or so it seems) and is hardly ever interfered with in a general situation where it’s merely the usual suspects who are wielding the law and quoting rules and regulations (to an extent where anybody who has the audacity to disagree is threatened with being expelled from the site). I don’t think ProZ is doing itself a favour by letting those vigilantes take over, and I think a lot of forum threads (as well as some kudoZ questions) illustrate this quite vividly.
The forum thread I was referring to is right at the bottom of this forum (What does KudoZ Etiquette mean?). It is one example of many where a discussion went completely haywire and out of control (and although it may have started out on the wrong foot this doesn’t justify what was to follow!).
I didn’t mean to slap any moderator in the face, I merely tried to point out a dilemma which, in my honest opinion, has created an underlying atmosphere which has been going on for months now and has caused a lot of bad blood, both of which are entirely unnecessary. It is neither creating a fertile ground for co-operation nor is it representing the site as it should be represented outside.
I do apologize, Ralf, particularly since you did in fact interfere with the particular forum thread mentioned above. However, the thread didn’t get closed in time, the perpetrator didn’t get told that this kind of harassment is simply intolerable (in any kind of other “professional” environment there would have been a tribunal with some consequences), and in the end everything went back to normal within the bat of an eyelid, i.e. more unnecessarily harsh remarks provoking a mudslinging match on a regular basis. But I suppose we’re used to it now, aren’t we?
None of this is the fault of a moderator, of course, but rather a problem with the general policy of the site. As far as I’m concerned, I’d be more than happy to live and let live, and more than willing to deal with things co-operatively and constructively to the best of my knowledge, as I’m sure the vast majority of colleagues here would. But certain people just won’t let you do this. And to allow those people to take over and bully others into submission according to their (purposefully subjective) interpretation of “professionalism” and the rules would be very ill advised indeed. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 23:00
German to English
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| We all have to learn to be more tolerant | Apr 29, 2002 |
Most of the fights that break out on this site involve certain \"red-rag issues\". We therefore need to learn to be more tolerant (that goes for all of us). To come back to some statements made earlier in this thread, if someone feels, for example, that Germans are the only true native speakers in the world, they should keep that opinion to themselves (but they are fully entitled to their own personal opinions), since they know fully well that such remarks will spawn even more disagreement and e... See more Most of the fights that break out on this site involve certain \"red-rag issues\". We therefore need to learn to be more tolerant (that goes for all of us). To come back to some statements made earlier in this thread, if someone feels, for example, that Germans are the only true native speakers in the world, they should keep that opinion to themselves (but they are fully entitled to their own personal opinions), since they know fully well that such remarks will spawn even more disagreement and even outright hatred. As others suggested before, think twice before posting a message or comment; calm down and ponder the consequences.
Also, the number of moderators in the major language pairs should be raised to 3 or even 4 (as Ralf rightly pointed out, moderators cannot be around all the time and look into every single KudoZ question or forum posting). In addition, ProZ should also appoint moderators for the monolingual subcommunities (i.e., English monolingual, French monolingual, etc.).
I have already mentioned this in passing: Mats Wiman (a moderator) and I, following one of those mudslinging fests, sat down and worked out a list (or \"manifesto\") of different items and topics that have regularly given rise to insults and attacks. We both feel that a lot of the trouble could be avoided if we, at least, tried to adhere to these planks:
- accreditation/certification is not necessary (although it shows a translator\'s commitment)
- degrees are not necessary (although proper training can make talented people even better)
- skills should be used in a professional manner
- there have been numerous instances of insults and name-calling on ProZ.com (myself not excluded), and any such insults (including \"bullsh..\", etc., even if they do not refer to a person, but a situation, etc.) must be stopped and sanctioned
- let only the facts speak for themselves
- accept the fact that there are bad translators. Nature will take care of them.
- do not \"attack\" more than what is explicitly said. Do not jump to conclusions. This goes for all of us.
- always substantiate the content of your disagreement. Be specific! This helps to create a meaningful discussion.
- always allow for the possibility that misunderstandings may occur.
For example, these items could form part of Cecilia\'s proposed Code of Ethics/Conduct. So, feel free to add to these or even start another forum thread. 
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-29 15:38 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Maya Jurt
Switzerland
Local time: 05:00
French to German
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| This is the spirit! | Apr 29, 2002 |
Bravo Werner, you\'ve come a long way buddy.
thanks for sharing your agreement with us.
And thanks to Mats too.
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| About Berni's Question | Apr 29, 2002 |
From long years of experience with \"Corporate America\" (depositions included):
The first question always must be:
WHO gets to make the rules?
WHO is invited to influence the process?
We probably all know that story about the wolf in sheep\'s clothing, so \'nough said.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-29 20:43 ]
| | | | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 05:00
Spanish to English
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| I second that, Maya, and kudos, Werner... | Apr 29, 2002 |
Seems that you and Mats have a head start. All that is fantastic. There\'s such a thing as mortality and growing up and the \"generational changing of the guard\" ... we have a lot of nameless young members out there just starting, and who knows, this may be good ground for them to learn. You\'ve been some really good teachers.
| | | | ivw (X)
English to Hungarian
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| 1) wholeheartedly agree w/ Berni's thoughts! 2) we need supervision! | Apr 29, 2002 |
Just one example:
[neutral, Terence Riley]: Yes, North Americans are illiterate, while Europeans are only \"concept dead\".
Is this a professional\'s unbiased opinion?? Referring to a translation question??
I\'m shocked! Whoever is responsible, should wake up and put these individuals where they belong.
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 23:00
German to English
+ ...
Quote:
On 2002-04-29 20:41, mayet wrote:
From long years of experience with \"Corporate America\" (depositions included):
The first question always must be:
WHO gets to make the rules?
WHO is invited to influence the process?
We probably all know that story about the wolf in sheep\'s clothing, so \'nough said.
... See more
Quote:
On 2002-04-29 20:41, mayet wrote:
From long years of experience with \"Corporate America\" (depositions included):
The first question always must be:
WHO gets to make the rules?
WHO is invited to influence the process?
We probably all know that story about the wolf in sheep\'s clothing, so \'nough said.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-29 20:43 ]
It\'s the entire community; that\'s who. ▲ Collapse
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| About Berni's Question | Apr 29, 2002 |
Good rules are simple.
Therefore, this rule will help:
Anyone, who has written hate mail to any other ProZ member for whatever reason should be banned from the KudoZ and forum site for at least one year.
(Hate mail is easy to spot or define, most of it is actionable.)
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-30 01:00 ]
| | | | John Kinory (X)
Local time: 04:00
English to Hebrew
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| Exactly, Ildiko | Apr 29, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-04-29 22:03, ivw wrote:
Just one example:
[neutral, Terence Riley]: Yes, North Americans are illiterate, while Europeans are only \"concept dead\".
Is this a professional\'s unbiased opinion?? Referring to a translation question??
I\'m shocked! Whoever is responsible, should wake up and put these individuals where they belong.
This was a comment ma... See more Quote:
On 2002-04-29 22:03, ivw wrote:
Just one example:
[neutral, Terence Riley]: Yes, North Americans are illiterate, while Europeans are only \"concept dead\".
Is this a professional\'s unbiased opinion?? Referring to a translation question??
I\'m shocked! Whoever is responsible, should wake up and put these individuals where they belong.
This was a comment made on an answer discussing the relative merits - formal and informal, AE v. BE - of a linguistic term. \'Shocking\' is right. But let\'s not forget that it was started by the following (to which Terence was not the only one who later added similar inflammatory remarks - please read carefully):
neutral Ñåðãåé Ëóçàí: General tendency to functional illitercy in North America.
I started a forum discussion on the prevalence of racist remarks on this site. Only one member took the trouble to add to it. If this is not a \'red rag\' (thanks, Werner), I don\'t know what is. But unfortunately, there is no English (monolingual) moderator. Should there be one?
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| | | | pschmitt
Local time: 04:00
German to English
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| There is no law without law enforcement! | Apr 30, 2002 |
I’m quite impressed by Werner’s and Mats’ initiative and would certainly go along with their suggested points. However, I think it’s not the rules and regulations that are a problem here, but its enforcement. We can have the best rules in the world, but without proper enforcement they won’t be of any use whatsoever! And I think this is the crux of the matter - this is the dilemma of the present situation, as others have pointed out as well.
I appreciate the fact t... See more I’m quite impressed by Werner’s and Mats’ initiative and would certainly go along with their suggested points. However, I think it’s not the rules and regulations that are a problem here, but its enforcement. We can have the best rules in the world, but without proper enforcement they won’t be of any use whatsoever! And I think this is the crux of the matter - this is the dilemma of the present situation, as others have pointed out as well.
I appreciate the fact that moderators have other things to do and only took on their role as moderators on a voluntary basis. I appreciate the fact that this inevitably means certain restrictions and limitations. But I believe there are some things that can make a moderator’s life much easier:
1. Raise the amount of moderators (at least within the major language pairs).
2. Monitor and rein in the ‘usual suspects’, those handful of people who have got a whole trail of bad blood behind them and are therefore very likely to cause more. (Ursula made a very good suggestion as well!).
3. I think some sort of ‘emergency button’ could help, in order to get in touch with the respective moderator immediately as soon as an incident is about to happen, i.e. before it gets out of hand and everybody involved.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not pleading for some kind of police state on ProZ, where uniformed men are armed to the teeth and found on every street corner, and where jails are everywhere and filled with people and pain. But if there’s to be some peace and prosperity, if there’s to be some democracy, if there’s to be a working law in the first place, it has to be enforced by the legitimate powers - and only by them!
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| | | | RHELLER
United States
Local time: 21:00
French to English
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| suggestion: May I propose an alternate? | Apr 30, 2002 |
Tant qu\'on n\'insulte pas les autres (e.g. comme on dit dans le midi...), c\'est un jeu de vitesse et d\'agilité mentale. Autrement, ca devient moche. Rappelons-nous que le but est d\'aider des confrères qui sont pressés et ne trouvent pas le bon mot. A mon humble avis, la présentation de plusieurs possibilités est une aide, pas une guerre.
J\'apprécie les corrections à mon français. Merci à tous.
Je propose d\'enlever agree/disagree.
Remplacer... See more Tant qu\'on n\'insulte pas les autres (e.g. comme on dit dans le midi...), c\'est un jeu de vitesse et d\'agilité mentale. Autrement, ca devient moche. Rappelons-nous que le but est d\'aider des confrères qui sont pressés et ne trouvent pas le bon mot. A mon humble avis, la présentation de plusieurs possibilités est une aide, pas une guerre.
J\'apprécie les corrections à mon français. Merci à tous.
Je propose d\'enlever agree/disagree.
Remplacer avec \"may I propose an alternate?
C\'est plus sympathique.
As long as one does not insult the other members, it\'s a game of speed and mental agility. Otherwise, it becomes quite ugly. Let us remember that the goal here is to help colleagues who are in a hurry and can\'t seem to find the right word/expression. In my humble opinion, presenting several options is helpful, not WAR.
I appreciate any corrections made to my French. (I am one of those -gasp- Americans!) Thanks to all.
2)what should we do when we are sure that the asker has accepted a \"wrong\" meaning? (contre-sens)
3) SUGGESTION: take away agree/disagree
replace with \"May I propose an alternate?\"
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Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X)
French to English
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| Summary of discussion on Mudslinging and Code of Ethics | Apr 30, 2002 |
1) A Code of Ethics would probably be a good thing
2) A Code of Ethics would be short and could incorporate Mat and Werner\'s worked-out suggestions
3) A Code of Ethics is a good thing, educationally speaking
4) Those not respecting it get thrown out after three strikes OR (my suggestion) be asked to resolve it in a public discussion
5) There should be more than one moderator per discussion
6) People should be free to say what they think while re... See more 1) A Code of Ethics would probably be a good thing
2) A Code of Ethics would be short and could incorporate Mat and Werner\'s worked-out suggestions
3) A Code of Ethics is a good thing, educationally speaking
4) Those not respecting it get thrown out after three strikes OR (my suggestion) be asked to resolve it in a public discussion
5) There should be more than one moderator per discussion
6) People should be free to say what they think while respecting others.
7) There should be a \"personal comment\" squash function for inappropriate remarks (but not sure by whom)
 Humor is essential (my suggestion)
If I missed anything, please just start at 9) in your responses and then we\'ll be moving toward a solution.
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| | | | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 05:00
Spanish to English
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| The Robot Arbiter | Apr 30, 2002 |
Taking up Jane\'s thread (yes, why not a little humor), may we have a \"yellow card\" option? (Picture a little black figure running across the screen to slap a yellow card on a foul remark, and when the player has accumulated three, he gets blocked out for the next so many days. Three on the same page and he gets red).
Been watching too much soccer. One humorous way of approaching the mudslinging question.
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 23:00
German to English
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| Not so much an issue of enforcement, I think | Apr 30, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-04-30 13:51, pschmitt wrote:
I’m quite impressed by Werner’s and Mats’ initiative and would certainly go along with their suggested points. However, I think it’s not the rules and regulations that are a problem here, but its enforcement. We can have the best rules in the world, but without proper enforcement they won’t be of any use whatsoever! And I think this is the crux of the matter - this is the dilemm
... See more Quote:
On 2002-04-30 13:51, pschmitt wrote:
I’m quite impressed by Werner’s and Mats’ initiative and would certainly go along with their suggested points. However, I think it’s not the rules and regulations that are a problem here, but its enforcement. We can have the best rules in the world, but without proper enforcement they won’t be of any use whatsoever! And I think this is the crux of the matter - this is the dilemma of the present situation, as others have pointed out as well.
I appreciate the fact that moderators have other things to do and only took on their role as moderators on a voluntary basis. I appreciate the fact that this inevitably means certain restrictions and limitations. But I believe there are some things that can make a moderator’s life much easier:
1. Raise the amount of moderators (at least within the major language pairs).
2. Monitor and rein in the ‘usual suspects’, those handful of people who have got a whole trail of bad blood behind them and are therefore very likely to cause more. (Ursula made a very good suggestion as well!).
3. I think some sort of ‘emergency button’ could help, in order to get in touch with the respective moderator immediately as soon as an incident is about to happen, i.e. before it gets out of hand and everybody involved.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not pleading for some kind of police state on ProZ, where uniformed men are armed to the teeth and found on every street corner, and where jails are everywhere and filled with people and pain. But if there’s to be some peace and prosperity, if there’s to be some democracy, if there’s to be a working law in the first place, it has to be enforced by the legitimate powers - and only by them!
Pschmitt, I don\'t think we should worry about enforcement or \"police states\" too much; any code to be created should serve as a reminder only (as pointed out by others in this thread: make people realize what they\'re doing before they do it). For example, when posting a message to the forum, a screen could come up reminding you of the fundamental rules, and that could help you to calm down and, perhaps, discard the message.
Another thing: we should be able to delete our messages. You post something in anger, but you can\'t delete it anymore (you can delete the text body, but the entry will remain). The same goes for KudoZ grades (we can hide our answers, but not our comments/grades). By deleting such in-the-heat-of-the-moment comments, you could possibly prevent a \"conflagration\". ▲ Collapse
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