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This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
Nov 12, 2014 16:02
9 yrs ago
12 viewers *
French term

maquette vs modèle

French to English Tech/Engineering Architecture
Target=UK

Context:
Sa caractéristique principale ? Elle tient à distance la modélisation. En effet, la maquette est irréductible au modèle et, sous certains aspects, elle s’y oppose.

Is there anyway of dealing with this, or do I have to ask the writer to rewrite this?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +5 maquette vs model
4 original vs copy
4 Architectural model vs project reference model
References
OED 2nd Edition

Discussion

Miranda Joubioux (X) (asker) Nov 14, 2014:
This very ambiguous French sentence really had me perplexed, since the rest of the text made it clear to me that the FR 'maquette' should be translated as 'model'. When the client answered my question, I understood that the model was being compared to the 'end result' the 'finished building' / 'reality' as she clearly states in her email. The writer is using the 2nd 'modèle' in the sense of something you model something on (as in a painter's model). The 'maquette' however is a 'scale model' and this is proved by the rest of the text. I have done my best with what I have and Helen, I want to reassure you that this really was a dangerously obscure and ambiguous sentence, to the point where you wonder will the French architects understand the French. I would like to thank you for putting so much effort into your answer and for all your references which will no doubt be useful in another context.
I have decided to close this without awarding points and not to enter anything into the glossary, because it really is a rather peculiar contrast.
Helen Shiner Nov 13, 2014:
@Miranda I don't agree. The original would be the building itself. What your client has said exactly matches the meaning of maquette as opposed to model. But I will leave it there. I don't understand the objection to my answer, but you are in charge and have the greater understanding of the context.
Miranda Joubioux (X) (asker) Nov 13, 2014:
It turns out that Dr Lofthouse is the one that is closest to its real meaning.
This is what my client had to say:
'La maquette dans ce sens, c'est l'objet maquette en carton, mousse, ou autre, le modèle dans ce cas, c'est la réalité, le bâtiment fini.'
Didier Fourcot Nov 12, 2014:
Mockup and model I understand the mockup as kind of the sculpture mentioned by Helen: this is a shape with no other properties

A model on the contrary is (at least from a CAD point of view, architects are the biggest users of Autocad products) has features, is made of materials with specified strengths, it cannot be an inverted pyramid, or you have to explain why and how with specific materials and anchroings, which is not needed for a mockup
Helen Shiner Nov 12, 2014:
@Miranda As I have tried to explain, an architectural model is a scale model of a project. A maquette is a (possibly, not always) much looser representation of an initial idea. Some maquettes could be used as scale models, due to their precision, but many have the status of back-of-the-envelope first working of an idea. The architects I worked with often saw maquettes (by great architects) as works of art in themselves, since they convey the first ideas and thus provide insight into an architect's working process. The same applies to sculpture.
Miranda Joubioux (X) (asker) Nov 12, 2014:
@Helen Hi Helen, I have never used the word 'maquette' in an architectural context.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architectural_model
Could this be a reference to the 'building model'?
Helen Shiner Nov 12, 2014:
Tate's glossary entry - sculpture http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20101215185830/htt...
Helen Shiner Nov 12, 2014:
@Miranda In sculpture (and architecture) a maquette is a first fleshing out/sketch of a final work. It may be very close to the final work, which is usually much larger. A model is a small-scale version of a larger work. It probably isn't the first sketching out of an idea, as a maquette is. So, as the text says, the one may be reducible to the other, but not necessarily. As for a translation, I would go with maquette and model.
Miranda Joubioux (X) (asker) Nov 12, 2014:
@Tony 'modélisation' is used in the sentence preceding it, and I believe refers to digital modelling. This model is the architectural model - as opposed to?
It looks like a problem to me.
Miranda Joubioux (X) (asker) Nov 12, 2014:
Full paragraph Vouloir dresser un inventaire du vocabulaire des maquettes est une entreprise vouée à la déception. Comment fixer dans la conception le miroitement des actions libres ? Les maquettes sont d’abord des occurrences, des cas et des faits. Elles sont l’expression de la multiplicité et de l’hétérogénéité qui font l’architecture en suivant la formule d’Aldo Rossi, « l’architecture ce sont les architectures ». Dans ce paysage volubile, on pourrait cependant s’amuser – tel est le mot clé des maquettes – à repérer quelques familles. Sans entamer une historiographie savante, encore moins une analyse fonctionnelle, nous tenterons plutôt une petite mythologie archaïque des maquettes. Si ce lexique partial devait nourrir une seule ambition, ce serait celle de montrer que la maquette constitue un paradigme contemporain de la représentation en architecture. Sa caractéristique principale ? Elle tient à distance la modélisation. En effet, la maquette est irréductible au modèle et, sous certains aspects, elle s’y oppose. Quand le modèle vise la transparence, la maquette construit et problématise, elle se complaît dans une opacité qui enrichit notre perception au lieu de la simplifier.
Tony M Nov 12, 2014:
Vocabulary problem I think I can see what they are getting at — the difference between a 'maquette', which is a kind of artists's impression, and a 'modèle', which is a more objective construction based on some kind of reality (!) Think 'computer modelling' (in the technical sense: seeing if something will work by trying it out first on the computer).

However, it's hard to see how to solve the problem that they both come down to 'model' in EN!
philgoddard Nov 12, 2014:
Again We don't have nearly enough context, Miranda.

Proposed translations

3 mins

original vs copy

or 'master document' vs specimen... that type of relationship.
Something went wrong...
14 hrs

Architectural model vs project reference model

Larousse definition of
"maquette": Représentation en trois dimensions, le plus souvent à échelle réduite, mais fidèle dans ses proportions, d'une construction, d'un appareil, d'un décor, d'un objet quelconque.
"modèle": in scale model
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architectural_model

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+5
20 mins

maquette vs model

Here is an explanation from the architectural field (albeit written by a Spaniard:

The model is by definition a three-dimensional scale test of a reality to be constructed. This reality, not yet subdued to future regulations or facilities required at the actual building, provides a freedom that makes the model a perfect field of study, experimentation, dream and playground.

With the architectural maquette the idea of the project becomes a reality. Through the scale model it is stablished a physical, intellectual and emotional relationship with the project. New technologies and three-dimensional graphics, though very useful tools, have only confirmed models as the only instrument to capture the true essence of the project.


http://www.metalocus.es/content/en/blog/architectural-maquet...

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Note added at 25 mins (2014-11-12 16:27:58 GMT)
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http://www.huntstonecarving.com/services/architectural-maque...

Here's a lovely once: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19709/lot/7510/

The key difference is that a model will be a scaled-down representation of a work, whereas a maquette will not necessarily correspond exactly in any way with the final work/building.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 32 mins (2014-11-12 16:34:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another explanation: http://www.denarend.com/works/models_maquettes/index.htm

I first encountered the term in an architectural context, when I was working in an architectural office in the late 1980s (staggeringly long ago!).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2014-11-13 09:27:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ok, well I'm sure you'll find your own answer. The Alberti is a translation from the Italian so I'm not sure what you think that proves.
Note from asker:
Helen, I realise that maquette is a term used in certain circumstances in architecture, but I'm not convinced this is the meaning here. Under the 'La maquette apollinienne', there is a quote from Alberti, which goes as follows: I would not have the Models too exactly finish' d, nor too delicate and neat, but plain and simple, more to be admired for the Contrivance of the Inventor, than the Hand of the Workman.
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : I always thought they meant the same thing, and that seems to be the case with your first two references. But I'm convinced by the Bonhams one!
14 mins
Thanks, Phil. I won't explain it again, but sometimes they are the same thing and sometimes not, as is stated in Miranda's text.
agree rkillings : Expand your EN vocabulary.
23 mins
Thanks, rkillings - is that a command addressed to me?
agree Tony M : Well, fancy that!
32 mins
To be fair to Miranda, maquette is more readily associated with sculpture.
agree B D Finch : Your first reference is delightfully self-contradictory, as well as ignoring the fact that differences of scale can have serious consequences e.g. a flea the size of an elephant would jump like an elephant, not like a flea.
38 mins
Thanks, Barbara - nice pics though!
agree Jennifer Levey : Yes. An architectural 'maquette' is often extremely abstract (everything's white, window and door-less suger-cube-like blocks represent buildings, ...), whereas a 'model' is intended to show what the finished building will really look like.
5 hrs
Thanks, Robin
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

43 mins
Reference:

OED 2nd Edition

maquette

(mæˈkɛt)

[Fr. (1752), ad. It. macchietta speck, little spot, dim. of macchia spot, f. macchiare to spot, stain, f. L. maculāre; cf. maculate v.]

A small preliminary model, in wax or clay, etc., or a preliminary painted sketch, from which a work in sculpture is elaborated. Also transf. and fig.

   1903 Athenæum 24 Jan. 122/3 M. J. B. E. Detaille has, after a long delay, executed four maquettes, each comprehending three large panels.    1926 W. J. Locke Stories Near & Far 78 The maquette or model in clay.    1951 H. Read Meaning of Art (ed. 3) ii. 240 The sculptor's maquette, or model, was reproduced, generally by other hands, either by being cast in bronze, or by being reproduced to scale by mechanical methods in marble.    1958 Times 8 Oct. 6/4 One might describe his art as a prolonged maquette for some ultimate synthesis or other.    1965 Zigrosser & Gaedhe Guide to Collecting Orig. Prints ii. 16 In some instances, the artist has actively collaborated in the adaptation of his own maquette, or sketch, by working on the plates or stones, and by ‘proving’ and approving the color separations.    1970 Country Life 31 Dec. 1280/3 This was the noble terra-cotta of a mourning woman‥the maquette for the figure of the wife on the Westminster Abbey monument to the poet Nicholas Rowe.    1972 P. Marks Collector's Choice iii. 181, I don't know why you had to go out and buy those Carpeaux maquettes last week.    1973 Times 11 Apr. 6/4 (caption) A maquette of Henry Moore's ‘Family Group’.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Tony M : Like Miranda, I've certainly come across it in this context, but never personally encountered it in an architectural context.
8 mins
Architects are sculptors, and vice versa.
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