| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Proposal related to barring outsourcers from offering rate at outset of job discussions Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
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| How about your proposals, except with an option to opt out? | Mar 26, 2010 |
I see little support for what I outlined.
Let's turn this around. Let's say I accept the working group proposal. Would you all agree to one additional provision: an opt out? Those who prefer to know rates info in advance could set their preferences accordingly.
The job posting form could be made to respect the preferences of those who meet all other non-rate criteria.
| | | | Maureen Young 
Italy
Local time: 21:33
Member (2009)
Italian to English
| Resources devoted to vetting can't be the problem | Mar 26, 2010 |
Pauley wrote:
(snip)
To conclude, I don't think Proz staff should have to filter every job posting in order to ensure that it meets preset minimum rate criteria. We can all save time if jobs are posted with no price stated and bids are duly opened. But the logic of telling us that outsourcers can post what they like and that we don't have to reply to it if we deem the offer unsuitable, and that this is what our bidding power amounts to "by default", is that wee bit of paternalism creeping in again, Henry. It is basically seeing the issue solely and exclusively from the side of the outsourcer and is a grave underestimation of the danger which such an open platform for exploitation represents to colleagues everywhere.
Well said. Henry, if you were to institute a rule tomorrow barring outsourcers from offering rates, I do not see why it would be necessary to immediately drop everything to devote all your staff to vet each and every message (though I would hope in the future you could put filters in place to look for this kind of thing in texts).
Translators could be asked to report violations and the offenders should lose their right to post jobs, and be marked as prominently as offenders on the Blue Board. Yes, they might keep signing up with a new name, but translators should be warned of these kinds of efforts to get around the rules.
These rules could also be applied to individual mail sent through the system. It should not be allowed, and reported violations would mean the same penalties as for violations through the jobs post.
Maureen
| | | | Maureen Young
Italy
Local time: 21:33
Member (2009)
Italian to English
| An opt out might help unscrupulous outsourcers even more? | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote:
I see little support for what I outlined.
Let's turn this around. Let's say I accept the working group proposal. Would you all agree to one additional provision: an opt out? Those who prefer to know rates info in advance could set their preferences accordingly.
The job posting form could be made to respect the preferences of those who meet all other non-rate criteria.
My immediate reaction is that this would help make Proz an even more efficient place for bottom-feeders to do their recruiting. But I'd like to better understand your logic: how would this truly help to correct the imbalance that has taken place?
Pauley sparked an intriguing idea: if you post rates offered (in an opt out scheme), that is if you truly have budget limits you want to state at the outset, you also have to name your final client and your selling price. Not that I think you'll go for that, but given the recent scandal with the translations for the Italian government site, it does not seem like such a bad idea. If it's the final client that forces low prices because of their own budget limits, that should be clearly stated and verifiable.
Maureen
| | | | | getting closer, but | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote:
I see little support for what I outlined.
Let's turn this around. Let's say I accept the working group proposal. Would you all agree to one additional provision: an opt out? Those who prefer to know rates info in advance could set their preferences accordingly.
The job posting form could be made to respect the preferences of those who meet all other non-rate criteria.
This is still leaving the "rates info" in the hands of the outsourcers.
It is the professionals who should be deciding the "rates info", not the other way around. The outsourcers have no businesses stating rates.
[Edited at 2010-03-26 14:15 GMT]
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Sarah Ferrara wrote:
getting closer, but
...
So no opt out. That is a fairly hard position. I wonder whether the community would accept it.
| | | | | what do you mean | Mar 26, 2010 |
what do you mean by community? The outsourcers?
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Sarah Ferrara wrote:
what do you mean by community? The outsourcers?
Translators. Our customers.
| | | | | No change to be expected | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote:
Would you all agree to one additional provision: an opt out? Those who prefer to know rates info in advance could set their preferences accordingly.
That would not change anything, and I agree with Maureen. This would leave even more leeway to low-paying outsourcers. If I were a newbie, I'd want to know rate info just to get an idea of where the market is going.
I can't see why removing all price info from a job post is so controversial. I want to share with you my experience in an area that is related to jobs: references. I usually sign NDAs with my client agencies, which means that I cannot give other outsourcers their names as this would mean breaching the NDAs. This should be a disadvantage. In fact, it's not. Negotiations go on when I explain new contacts why I cannot give them references and offer a short translation test in return.
I think this would be the same. Of course, outsourcers would have to spend more time finding a suitable translator for a given job, but we as translators invest a great deal of our time in looking for new collaborations, filling in forms and doing test translations without, most of the time, getting any job.
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| Trial period | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote:
Translators. Our customers.
Then why don't we give it a chance, at least? Let's implement this for a period and see if there any benefits.
| | | | | the community | Mar 26, 2010 |
I can't speak for everyone else, but you know how the petitioners feel (this is the one main point of the petition so you can assume the signers agree on this one point, I think) and if you've had your ear to the ground, many others would support it, too.
I wonder why you think the community wouldn't accept it? Have you had feedback that tells you most of your community like outsourcers being able to set rates?
| | | | | Can't we work together? | Mar 26, 2010 |
Sarah Ferrara wrote:
I can't speak for everyone else, but you know how the petitioners feel (this is the one main point of the petition so you can assume the signers agree on this one point, I think) and if you've had your ear to the ground, many others would support it, too.
I wonder why you think the community wouldn't accept it? Have you had feedback that tells you most of your community like outsourcers being able to set rates?
As I explained in the first post, this is an idea that has already been rejected. (And not because translators "like outsourcers being able to set rates", but for the reasons I stated in my post.)
Don't get me wrong, site staff members do not make decisions on how to configure ProZ.com based on votes. But if the customers don't want something, we can't force it on them. And we don't try to.
Look, what I am trying to do here is what I said we would do at the outset: work with your outstanding movement to help you make use of the resource that is ProZ.com. We on the site staff are on your side. I am willing to try to implement your proposal and make it work, but the only way I can see to make it work is to provide an opt out. That is the best I can do. That is based on my experience in running ProZ.com, and based on my experience with this very proposal in the past.
Please soften your all or nothing stance. We can make progress for the industry together. It may not happen overnight... but it would be a shame for things to end here.
| | | | | trying to understand | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote:
As I explained in the first post, this is an idea that has already been rejected. (And not because translators "like outsourcers being able to set rates", but for the reasons I stated in my post.)
Don't get me wrong, site staff members do not make decisions on how to configure ProZ.com based on votes. But if the customers don't want something, we can't force it on them. And we don't try to.
I'm not arguing - I promise. I genuinely want to know, because I didn't get from your first post that the idea was rejected because the majority of your customers didn't want it, I understood that you and your team had considered, then rejected the idea, based on undisclosed factors. Also I took time out from freelance translation for a few years so maybe things/discussions went on here that I am unaware of.
But if you are saying you have real evidence that the majority of your customers want outsourcers to be able to set their budget when posting job offers, I'd genuinely be interested in hearing about it. Because that's not the impression I was under, based on the a) the petition and b) the scores of blogs and comments out there.
Because obviously, if you have a majority of existing clients, and the petitioners are a annoying minority then obviously your position is understandable. You have a business to run. But if the majority take the petitioners
Again - not arguing, trying to gain some understanding. Of course we can work together, that's what we're doing here
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Maureen Young
Italy
Local time: 21:33
Member (2009)
Italian to English
| Explain why you think the opt out is necessary? | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote:
Look, what I am trying to do here is what I said we would do at the outset: work with your outstanding movement to help you make use of the resource that is ProZ.com. We on the site staff are on your side. I am willing to try to implement your proposal and make it work, but the only way I can see to make it work is to provide an opt out. That is the best I can do. That is based on my experience in running ProZ.com, and based on my experience with this very proposal in the past.
Please soften your all or nothing stance. We can make progress for the industry together. It may not happen overnight... but it would be a shame for things to end here.
Henry, I very much appreciate your efforts to work with us. Would you explain better why you feel so strongly that this opt out is necessary, why you feel that it is the best you can do based on your experience running Proz.com, to the point that things could end here if we don't soften this stance?
It is hard for me to understand how an opt out option might not do even more damage (by making the system even more efficient for bottom-fishers, and making ProZ the number 1 place for this market).
Since we've come this far....I also would like to see you willing to try an experimental period in which no outsourcers can offer rates. (Easier to implement that the opt out option! )
Maureen
| | | | | Agree with Maureen | Mar 26, 2010 |
Maureen Young wrote: I also would like to see you willing to try an experimental period in which no outsourcers can offer rates. (Easier to implement that the opt out option! ) Maureen
Which are the practical/technical problems of an experimental period?
Paola
| | | | | Those of you who wrote the proposals must already understand that translators disagree on the idea | Mar 26, 2010 |
Hi all,
You are asking questions that it occurs to me you must already know the answers to.
I was not involved in the discussions that led up to the PropoZals, and I have not seen them. Yet I would bet, based on my experience, that there must have been translators who disagreed with the idea of barring outsourcers from saying anything in relation to rates. I am sure they made their positions on that clear.
Are you telling me this was not the case? If so, th... See more Hi all,
You are asking questions that it occurs to me you must already know the answers to.
I was not involved in the discussions that led up to the PropoZals, and I have not seen them. Yet I would bet, based on my experience, that there must have been translators who disagreed with the idea of barring outsourcers from saying anything in relation to rates. I am sure they made their positions on that clear.
Are you telling me this was not the case? If so, then I am definitely out of touch! ▲ Collapse
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