| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Proposal related to barring outsourcers from offering rate at outset of job discussions 投稿者: Henry Dotterer
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| transparency | Mar 25, 2010 |
Henry D wrote: Sarah Ferrara wrote:
The solutions you have laid out just push the problems under the carpet. That is exactly what I don't like about the proposal to bar outsourcers from sharing budget information, when they would like to. What I put forward is certainly more transparent, not less.
Is transparency really your concern? If so, then make it so that translators have to publicly state their rates on bidding, and make their rates visible to all. The problem is letting service-buyers dictate the maximum rates for a job, not transparency or lack-of.
I don't go to a lawyer and say "right, I've only got $1000 in the bank, so you'll have to do it for under that amount". My lawyer doesn't care how much money I have to spend, and I don't care what the outsourcer's budget is. In fact, that's another problem: bottom-feeding agencies who bid on government contracts at rock bottom prices, knowing that they can come to Proz AFTER they've won the contract (the recent Trust Translations debacle comes to mind) and scrape the barrel in super quick time. They don't even have to sift through bids, they just state their maximum, tell everyone it's for a prestigious government contract (so all the inexperienced translators will salivate and think, well it'll look good on my CV, that might make up for the fact that I'm working under minimum wage), and in under 10 minutes they have their pool of bargain basement translators willing to work for the stated maximums.
What you put forward still allows buyers of the service to dictate their rates, and I repeat, this is a fundamental part of the petition, and as Wendell points out, the one point that, I am willing to bet, everyone who signed was in agreement on. This is the CRUX of the matter, and your efforts in the other areas, while appreciated, don't even come close to making up for this one.
[Edited at 2010-03-25 14:32 GMT]
| | | | | Independently of this forum and the petition | Mar 25, 2010 |
Are you willing to risk bargaining serious professionals for a bunch of newbies or people who don't see why they cannot literally translate a marketing text (f.e.) from one language to another? Because this is what is going to happen in the long run.
Henry, we're here to try find a mutually acceptable solution, but what you are proposing does not even come close to our lowest expectations.
| | | | | barring outsourcers from setting the price | Mar 25, 2010 |
For me this is the fundamental issue. Like others have said before me, I will be very very disappointed if this point is not reconsidered. There is not a single job posted on proz.com in my language combination that will enable anyone in the Western world to make a decent living (unless, of course, they are kept by their parents or spouse, or have other sources of income). Frankly, the only reason I have renewed my membership is that clients occasionally contact me through my profile, and that... See more For me this is the fundamental issue. Like others have said before me, I will be very very disappointed if this point is not reconsidered. There is not a single job posted on proz.com in my language combination that will enable anyone in the Western world to make a decent living (unless, of course, they are kept by their parents or spouse, or have other sources of income). Frankly, the only reason I have renewed my membership is that clients occasionally contact me through my profile, and that can lead to lasting relationships.
Sarah ▲ Collapse
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I am sorry I did not intervene before, but I had a PC crash and still recovering from it.
I have been a paying member for years now.
I hardly got any jobs from Proz, but contacts (agency, colleagues, friends) yes. A lot.
Most of them were and are great.
I participated to many conferences (I was in Ohrid last summer...), I organized and participated to Powwows, I encouraged translators to sign and become a paying member. So Proz means (meant?) a lot to me.
Howeve... See more I am sorry I did not intervene before, but I had a PC crash and still recovering from it.
I have been a paying member for years now.
I hardly got any jobs from Proz, but contacts (agency, colleagues, friends) yes. A lot.
Most of them were and are great.
I participated to many conferences (I was in Ohrid last summer...), I organized and participated to Powwows, I encouraged translators to sign and become a paying member. So Proz means (meant?) a lot to me.
However, I will not renew my membership, and I will stop my "PR activity", as I am really tired of seeing those miserable rates clearly stated.
I am firmly against this image of the underpaid translator the "unconscious ones" (Frauke) might get.
Personally, I have a very strict view: I won't accept a site where those ridiculous numbers are carved in stone.
Maybe you should create 2 platforms, ProZ and BeginnerZ. Agencies looking for cheap translations might be addressed to students, beginners, bad professionals (like those accepting lousy rates) etc., agencies looking for Quality might be addressed to another section of the site. It's like wth shops: you don't scream the price in the street, you choose the one for your pockets and for the quality you're after.
Greetings,
Paola ▲ Collapse
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| Educating outsourcers | Mar 25, 2010 |
Stefano Gallorini: If you bar outsources from setting the price, you don't push the problems under the carpet. You start educate the outsources.
And that's the most important objective of all.
For years, ProZ has served as a "cattiva maestra" for outsourcers -- not the only one, by far, but one of the more important -- and they've learned their lesson well.
It will be tough to turn that tide and there'd be lots of harrumphing and complaining. If the effort is accompanied by appropriate public education, however, it can work.
W.
| | | | | effects of action by Proz + PR | Mar 25, 2010 |
Wendell Ricketts wrote:
It will be tough to turn that tide and there'd be lots of harrumphing and complaining. If the effort is accompanied by appropriate public education, however, it can work.
W.
I can't even begin to imagine the power that action on the part of Proz accompanied by appropriate press releases explaining their decision could have.
| | | | | Revamping the "premium" jobs concept | Mar 25, 2010 |
Henry, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that one of the reasons behind the introduction of the Connect! platform was to create a system that made it easier for outsourcers to find the right translator - and for translators to find better clients.
It also introduced the concept of "premium" jobs (defined as jobs offered at a better-than-average rate) . Wouldn't it be possible to take the whole concept a bit further, and maybe use the Connect! platform for job postings that leave ... See more Henry, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that one of the reasons behind the introduction of the Connect! platform was to create a system that made it easier for outsourcers to find the right translator - and for translators to find better clients.
It also introduced the concept of "premium" jobs (defined as jobs offered at a better-than-average rate) . Wouldn't it be possible to take the whole concept a bit further, and maybe use the Connect! platform for job postings that leave it to the translator to quote a rate to the outsourcer? Instead of "premium" jobs (a definition that I've always found mildly insulting, to be honest), they could be called something else.
Clients with a tight budget, or clients who want to state a rate in their offers, would be redirected to the "normal" job posting system.
Just a thought,
Mirella ▲ Collapse
| | | | | positive echo | Mar 25, 2010 |
Sarah Ferrara wrote:
I can't even begin to imagine the power that action on the part of Proz accompanied by appropriate press releases explaining their decision could have.
And it would have the support of all communities of translators, the main fora and mailing lists and the professional associations.
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| Not at all convinced that what you outline is enough | Mar 25, 2010 |
Hi Henry. First off, I'd really like to thank you for taking the time to discuss this with us.
Henry D wrote:
Among the scenarios that could be considered are the one in which the client has no intention (or ability) to pay a reasonable rate,
Given your mission statement, I find myself wondering why in the world ProZ should make itself the place to go for those who have "no intention of paying a reasonable rate"???
An exception could be for pro bono work for certain categories of registered charities, which is a question which could be treated separately. In fact, perhaps an area on the site could be developed to which to direct new translators trying to get experience under their belt, without having to undersell or participate in unfair practices such as crowdsourcing for commercial sites. (Can I add this proposal?)
As for those who do not have the "ability" to pay reasonable rates, perhaps a professionally edited machine translation job, say for internal use, would be sufficient. This lower-quality and lower-priced option should be thoroughly explained. But if it is simply a question of a business not having the money to pay reasonable rates, again, why should ProZ encourage its translators to act as charities to businesses, and why should businesses be encouraged to compete unfairly by not paying its outsourcers decent compensation?
But back to the question of clients setting rates:
in which case time will be saved in knowing that at the outset,
In fact in the past I tried not to worry to much about this "market" precisely because the system has worked well enough that I no longer see most of these offers, and it has saved me wasting my time on quoting jobs I'll never be considered for. However, I've been convinced that I Do need to start worrying about it: even if nothing has changed technically, ProZ HAS become much more influential, and thus bears more responsibility than ever if it aims to support the community of professional translators. As you explain yourself, things have changed on a global level, and for this reason we can no longer afford to ignore site policies that are damaging to the entire professional community. The entire protest is based mainly on this one point (allowing clients to insert pricing in their offers), that is that these policies are facilitating a distortion of professional practices, something we translators in Italy may be feeling more acutely than others. A canary in a coal mine, as I think you put it.
I've been a member since the beginning (profile no. 5301), but I only upgraded for the first time this year. I did it partly out of curiosity, to see if it was worthwhile, and partly out of recognition to ProZ for what it has done over the years (for instance I find all kinds of valuable goodies among the junk in the glossaries). However, I too will vote with my feet if you do not find a satisfactory solution to this problem, because ProZ has become far too influential to ignore the impact of such policies.
All that said, while it is true that it would be inconceivable for a professional engineering site to encourage awarding jobs to engineers on the basis of their willingness to work for peanuts, is IS normal for engineering FIRMS to be awarded jobs for low bids, but the idea is that there are guarantees in place to ensure that the job is done professionally in any case. And nonetheless, it is STILL the bidders who calculate and set their price, based on being able to pay their suppliers and make a profit. Since our sector is, like it or not, full of people to whom the business side often doesn't come naturally (me included! the problem of freelancing is you need so many and often conflicting talents), a site truly at our service should do everything it can to encourage and assist translators to do what bidders in every sector should do: deliver professional work, and charge rates that allow them to pay expenses, make a profit, and not undercut colleagues in their same "community" through unfair practices (like living on other means and charging what amounts to pin money).
Allowing clients to propose indecent rates achieves exactly the opposite.
and the one in which the client is prepared to offer more than some service providers might otherwise quote. (Though much less publicized than the other scenario, such postings are made on a daily basis. Related, one of the actions that has been planned coming out of the petition is that more data on rates be made available to the community.)
Like Sarah, I don't think I've ever seen decent rates offered in my combination (that is, decent offers stated outright as opposed to accepting decent bids).
In any case, yes, it is essential that more data becomes available. I hesitate at the idea of "minimum rates", because I fear that they would become implicitly endorsed as "standard". I have noticed, for instance, that some people who are scandalized by certain rates, themselves work at rates that I consider unacceptable even in Italy, and in turn I imagine my own rates would be considered far too low by other professionals.
So what can be done? (snip) In the period after the petition, while the PropoZals working group went to work on the question, I and others on the site staff were doing the same. The strategy we arrived at gets a little involved, but the principle can be summarized as "containment and filtering". In short, rather than attempting to ban (or in truth, delay) the broaching of rates negotiation by outsourcers, our plan is to provide a dedicated place for budgeting information (with appropriate messaging, perhaps even messaging providing reasons not to enter rates information). With budgeting information having been confined to a dedicated field -- and that approach supported by a policy barring the mention of rates in the *text* of a posting or profile message -- it could then be "contained", with access to it filtered, thereby eliminating the potential that ProZ.com would be used to propagandize on rates.
It sounds ingenious, and I understand the logic: you are saying that those who are willing to pay peanuts will reject higher rates in the end anyway, and you are saving us a lot of wasted time in trying to deal with them. Still, I am not quite convinced, because in the end it still sounds like a system to continue to allow ProZ to do the very thing that has become so problematic, and that is act as a powerful service for outsourcers looking for cheap translators.
This is why we feel that this particular point is so crucial.
If you can find a way to truly correct this anomaly of low-paying clients distorting the market, I will be delighted to continue as an upgraded member. I appreciate your brainstorming, and you have addressed a point not taken into consideration by those who simply demand "no mention of rates", but I am not at all convinced that what you have outlined is enough. Considering the distortion that is taking place, surely in part because of the global situation (many who have lost their jobs are turning to translating, and why not, the market will continue to expand), I'd be willing to start "wasting my time" sending bids that are unlikely to be accepted if this will help job offerers get a more realistic idea of what they ought to be paying for a job well done.
Thanks for slogging through this,
Maureen
| | | | Frauke Joris (X)
イタリア
Local time: 18:33
イタリア語 から オランダ語
+ ...
| public positive signals | Mar 25, 2010 |
"I can't even begin to imagine the power that action on the part of Proz accompanied by appropriate press releases explaining their decision could have. "
it's time to decide about publish positive signals.
Henry, please concentrate on the point on which you did not want to concentrate. It is to important, for you and for us.
The question is the idiots must receive from you the signal that YOU and ProZ and the translators on ProZ do not want to work... See more "I can't even begin to imagine the power that action on the part of Proz accompanied by appropriate press releases explaining their decision could have. "
it's time to decide about publish positive signals.
Henry, please concentrate on the point on which you did not want to concentrate. It is to important, for you and for us.
The question is the idiots must receive from you the signal that YOU and ProZ and the translators on ProZ do not want to work anymore with customers that enter a shop to buy a pair of good shoe's and PRETEND to have the best ones for a price that they themselves pay, not for shoes, but for a bottle of milk.
The other question is that the OTHER idiots (our being or future colleagues) receive the same signal.
Days pass and every day all over the world, blogs, facebook and mailinglists are posting examples of idiots _together with_ the name "ProZ".
it will take no long time anymore - especially for facebook users which NOTHING HAVE TO DO WITH TRANSLATORS OR TRANSLATIONS, but all possible future buyers of translations, possible young people which will start business affairs, wich will need some day translations, to notice ProZ = Not OK.
Not to speak of the fact this kind of negative publicity will definitely have an effect on your potential sponsors (I saw a publicity of TS3000 on this page yesterday). As a matter of fact, the creator of that very good programm, has now started since a few time his own forum for translators.
How much time you will wait for him to discover that he can invite also customers to that forum? And create a place for paying translators on his allready existing forum promoting this forum as "here you will not find customers behaving as the ones on ProZ"?????
Do you see what I mean? He does not have to SAY that in an explicit way...... "mouth to mouth" publicity rushes in internet today as a missile.
Frauke ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Let's go into more detail, then, Wendell | Mar 25, 2010 |
Wendell Ricketts wrote:
I don't want to take an "all or nothing position," but for many of us, this is not a point on which we're prepared to accept much compromise.
Fair enough. Good thing we are talking then.
ProZ is not harmed, even remotely, if it stops outsourcers from indicating rates.
Who said it would be? Not an issue.
I'm frankly not only disappointed but more than a little embittered that we're traipsing around semantics such as "technically no one can determine your rates for you."
Not "technically", I did not write that. You are the only one who has control of your rates, period. If you do not hold that view, our view of the situation is fundamentally different and we probably have no basis for discussion. The entire ProZ.com model rests on the assumption that translators set their own rates.
If you really think there is the remotest possibility that someone can respond to an ad for 2 cents a word and say "Hi, I'm qualified and ready, but I don't work for less than 8 cents" AND HAVE A PRAYER OF GETTING THAT JOB, you are living in a dream world.
I am not sure what I wrote that made you think I suggested that.
Letting outsourcers lead with rates takes bargaining power away from translators. Here, in the real world.
In the real world, though, people can not and will not be told how to run their businesses. (And it would not be my style to try.) To believe that ProZ.com could wave a magic wand, or police people to the point that all translation customers will be forced to negotiate as you would prefer them to, (even when other translators would not prefer than they negotiate in that way, incidentally), well, I think that is overly optimistic.
In my language combination, ProZ does not offer me the choice between well paying and badly paying jobs. It offers me only bad-paying ones.
What makes you think that you are in a position to comment so authoritatively on that -- because you follow job postings as a non-member?
First of all, the most common way for members to meet clients via ProZ.com is through the directory. At the moment, there are 589 Italian to English translators that are paying members of ProZ.com. (And over 1000 English to Italian.) 85-90% of members report having met clients via ProZ.com who pay the rates they charge. Is it your position that all of those people are working at "bad" rates?
If you don't have the comments that signers made when they signed the petition, I'll send them to you.
Yes, I never got those, so please send them.
How can you possibly *not* want to take a specific, concrete steps to change such impressions? To make clear not only that ProZ isn't the dedicated dumping forum BUT ALSO that it has taken steps to become an industry leader in putting power back into the hands of translators in the client/translator transaction?
Reading this, I get the impression you did not even look at the plan I outlined, which was both "specific" and "concrete".
It defeats the entire purpose of this negotiation.
I did not know this was a negotiation, I thought we were brainstorming ways to support the livelihood of translators. Again, I don't believe we are on opposite sides.
Looking for a way forward, maybe it would help me if you were to clarify in a bit more detail what you hope to achieve by this measure. I had assumed the point was to take away the potential for outsourcers to "propagandize" on rates, and what I proposed would certainly achieve that. So if it is not that, I will try to get clear on what it is.
Combing through your post for clues, you said:
If they can't post their rates at the get-go, and if they have to then start negotiating with translators who work for normal rates, they will either change their policies or they will go elsewhere. Either solution is fine with me; it ought to be fine with ProZ as well.
Let's examine this, if you don't mind. Do you think that "If they can't post their rates at the get-go", these low-paying clients will actually "start negotiating with translators who work for normal rates"? In other words, do you expect the one to follow from the other?
And presuming, for the sake of argument, that such negotiations with "normal" rate translators were indeed precipitated by this "barring" measure, do you think that the outsourcers in question will refrain from expressing their positions on rates once the negotiations have begun? (Presumably because the translator mentioned price first?)
I'm trying to work this out. I don't get how ensuring that one side goes first changes the balance of power...
| | | | | Thanks, Barbara | Mar 25, 2010 |
Barbara Alberti wrote:
(1) This would not solve the problem. On my part, I simply hit Delete when I read certain job offers, but that does not prevent outsourcers from indicating a price range and translators accepting it, thus damaging the entire category.
Thanks for posting, Barbara. In your opinion, is the point of the proposal, then, in part to interrupt the ability of low-paying outsourcers, and low-paying translators, to meet efficiently?
Again, it’s not so simple to establish what rates the community applies. We checked the average rates published in ProZ.com.
What data are you referencing here with ("the average rates published in ProZ.com")?
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Frauke Joris (X)
イタリア
Local time: 18:33
イタリア語 から オランダ語
+ ...
| Video example + proposal | Mar 25, 2010 |
I would very much like to make it possible for you to see the video which illustrates the idiot customers.
We need a video in wich the translator=vendor responds to that idiots in the idiot way they now are doing: not only accepting what the idiots ask, but even offering more than what ... See more I would very much like to make it possible for you to see the video which illustrates the idiot customers.
We need a video in wich the translator=vendor responds to that idiots in the idiot way they now are doing: not only accepting what the idiots ask, but even offering more than what they are asked for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY&feature=player_embedded
Frauke
(ps video allready posted in the facebookplace for translators who work with the Italian language) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | What exactly does it fail to achieve? | Mar 25, 2010 |
Sarah Ferrara wrote:
The 800-odd translators signed the petition to oppose the business model that allows outsourcers to state/set/fix their price.
But Sarah, it cuts both ways, you know. If you say that the model allows outsourcers to state/set/fix their prices, you must also say that the model allows translators to state/set/fix their prices, because there is no bias in the model, it is just pure communication between two parties. I conclude from a recent quick poll that most people understand that their rates are not determined by outsourcers.
Getting that message out to the minority who don't -- the message that "you get to set your own rates -- don't let them be dictated to you by anyone!" -- is perhaps the most important thing that could come out of this. If we can't do that, we lose, no matter what else we do.
Being able to filter postings so I can't see the insulting ones will help my blood pressure, but won't help implement the change we are seeking.
Then I'll ask you the same thing I asked Wendell. What, exactly, is it that you (speaking for yourself) hope to achieve, that will not be achieved by what the plan I have outlined?
| | | | | Right, Sarah, that is how it works | Mar 25, 2010 |
Sarah Jane Webb wrote:
... clients occasionally contact me through my profile, and that can lead to lasting relationships.
It almost sounds as though you think this is by accident. ProZ.com is a network, that is how the system works for most people. Only a minority of client/translator meetings happen through the job posting system. (And thanks for your membership.)
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