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memoq's inconsistent statistics
Thread poster: Epameinondas Soufleros
Philippe Etienne
Philippe Etienne  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 04:13
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English to French
Don't ignore the fourth dimension May 25, 2018

Time.

If before translation
Epameinondas Soufleros wrote:
...A TM match is a TM match and a repetition is a repetition...

After translation, A TM match is a 101% match and a repetition is a 101% match.

Epameinondas Soufleros wrote:
If analysis before translation compares a document's segments both within a document and against a TM, but analysis after translation only compares a document's segments against a TM, then those two analyses should be offered under a different name: pre-translation analysis and post-translation analysis....

You've lost me here. There might have been new MQ features that I am not aware of, since I'm still happily using 2013 R2.
Your issue may boil down to the fact that "Counts" and "Analysis" use the same word "Repetitions".
In "Counts", repetitions will always be there (statistics), but in "Analysis" it's dynamic, based on the TM and translation progress.

I've been living for the past 10 years without "Counts" in MemoQ, and if it leads to the confusion you're experiencing, I am glad I never had that box ticked!
It would help to know why you want to see "Counts" and what's your workflow. The "inconsistencies" you mention may result from your confusion as to what a "repetition" is for a CAT tool, and the dynamic nature of the analysis as translation progresses.
Like Mikhail, I run the analysis (with Homogeneity OFF if it's for pricing) and save before starting the translation, and I never need "Counts".

Mirko Minardi wrote:
if homogeneity counts "internal" matches, and repetitions are necessarily internal, then why are repetitions not part of "homogeneity"?

Ah! the Homogeneity swindle... With Homogeneity ON, there are no repetitions ("repetition" in its CAT sense, not its "Counts" sense): The first occurrence of the repetition is counted as a 0% match (if it's not 0 it's not a repetition but a fuzzy match), subsequent occurrences are 100%, because the first repetition is virtually inserted into the TM as a translation unit, making subsequent ones 100% matches.

Epameinondas Soufleros wrote:
...they existed before memoq had the idea of homogeneity statistics (which Studio calls "internal fuzzies")...

The first time I came across such homogeneity/internal fuzzies/dynamic matching was with SDLX more than 15 years ago. Then SDL bought Trados and the rest is history.

Philippe


 
Epameinondas Soufleros
Epameinondas Soufleros  Identity Verified
Greece
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A repetition is a repetition May 25, 2018

Philippe Etienne wrote:
After translation, A TM match is a 101% match and a repetition is a 101% match.


Does translation change anything in the source text? No, it does not. Why, then, would the intra- type of relations in a document change after translation? What used to be a repetition before translation continues to be a repetition.

If segment 10 contains the text "Hello" and segments 20 and 30 contain the text "Hello", then 20 and 30 will always be a repetition of 10. After translation, they will also be a 101% match with reference to the TM. But that doesn't negate their status as repetitions.


 
Mikhail Kropotov
Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 04:13
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Precisely because there's a translation process involved. May 25, 2018

Epameinondas Soufleros wrote:

Philippe Etienne wrote:
After translation, A TM match is a 101% match and a repetition is a 101% match.


Does translation change anything in the source text? No, it does not. Why, then, would the intra- type of relations in a document change after translation? What used to be a repetition before translation continues to be a repetition.

If segment 10 contains the text "Hello" and segments 20 and 30 contain the text "Hello", then 20 and 30 will always be a repetition of 10. After translation, they will also be a 101% match with reference to the TM. But that doesn't negate their status as repetitions.


Precisely because there's a translation process involved.

As you said, repetitions have nothing to do with a TM. That means they have nothing to do with translation.

Once you bring in translation, it's more useful to treat each segment according to the status of the target, not the source.

[Edited at 2018-05-25 16:25 GMT]


 
Epameinondas Soufleros
Epameinondas Soufleros  Identity Verified
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The target is irrelevant May 25, 2018

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:
Once you bring in translation, it's more useful to treat each segment according to the status of the target, not the source.


The count and analysis in memoq continue to be based on the source.


 
Mikhail Kropotov
Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Germany
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Status, not contents, of the target May 25, 2018

Epameinondas Soufleros wrote:

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:
Once you bring in translation, it's more useful to treat each segment according to the status of the target, not the source.


The count and analysis in memoq continue to be based on the source.


Please note I said "status of the target", not "the contents of the target."

Like one or more of the previous posters in this thread, I don't have and have never had any use for the "Count" section of the Analysis report. I understand your issue with it, but I disagree that Count should repeat the Analysis section shows. What would be the use of having two redundant sections?

[Edited at 2018-05-25 16:32 GMT]


 
Philippe Etienne
Philippe Etienne  Identity Verified
Spain
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Rethoric May 25, 2018

Epameinondas Soufleros wrote:
The count and analysis in memoq continue to be based on the source.

If it's about rethoric or philosophy, surely there are inconsistencies with CAT tools.
My advice: don't display "Counts".

Philippe


 
Epameinondas Soufleros
Epameinondas Soufleros  Identity Verified
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Please get familiar with the count function May 25, 2018

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:
Please note I said "status of the target", not "the contents of the target."


No matter what the status or any other property of the target is, the repetition count of the source document should remain the same.



Like one or more of the previous posters in this thread, I don't have and have never had any use for the "Count" section of the Analysis report.


Then I am afraid you don't have the full picture of the matter. So, please familiarize yourself with it before posting any further comments. Thank you.


 
Mikhail Kropotov
Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Germany
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I'll be the judge of that May 25, 2018

I understand you initially wrote this post to educate peers about inconsistencies in how MemoQ collects or presents project statistics. Well done on that -- we've heard you. The issue in question then shifted to what is and what is not a repetition. To discuss this, I don't need to know what the Count section of MemoQ analysis reports does. I gave you my view on it, plus I described the process I use which prevents me from ever encountering the original issue you're suffering from. If you fail t... See more
I understand you initially wrote this post to educate peers about inconsistencies in how MemoQ collects or presents project statistics. Well done on that -- we've heard you. The issue in question then shifted to what is and what is not a repetition. To discuss this, I don't need to know what the Count section of MemoQ analysis reports does. I gave you my view on it, plus I described the process I use which prevents me from ever encountering the original issue you're suffering from. If you fail to find this contribution useful, so be it, but don't tell me to stop commenting about a translation tool I've been using almost daily for over 8 years.

[Edited at 2018-05-25 16:50 GMT]
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Epameinondas Soufleros
Epameinondas Soufleros  Identity Verified
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Repetitions are broken May 25, 2018

I've been using the tool for as long as you, but if there is a bug I tell it as it is, I don't turn a blind eye on it and defend the tool as if I were some kind of advocate or a shareholder of the company. If it's broken, then it's broken. The Count function is broken, no matter if you use it or not. Hiding facts doesn't make the tool any better. I know I can simply not use it. But that's not the point. If we shouldn't use it, then they should disable the feature. If they continue to have it, th... See more
I've been using the tool for as long as you, but if there is a bug I tell it as it is, I don't turn a blind eye on it and defend the tool as if I were some kind of advocate or a shareholder of the company. If it's broken, then it's broken. The Count function is broken, no matter if you use it or not. Hiding facts doesn't make the tool any better. I know I can simply not use it. But that's not the point. If we shouldn't use it, then they should disable the feature. If they continue to have it, then they should fix it. I didn't ask for a workaround. I pointed out a bug.

[Edited at 2018-05-25 19:07 GMT]
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Stepan Konev
Stepan Konev  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 06:13
English to Russian
Trados 2017 is either broken May 26, 2018

Just checked my recent translation.
Reps in words before translation: 764
Reps in words after translation: 85
They are all broken...

[Edited at 2018-05-26 08:28 GMT]


 
Epameinondas Soufleros
Epameinondas Soufleros  Identity Verified
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Checked it too May 26, 2018

Hello. That's exactly what I wanted to add. I checked yesterday and apparently Trados Studio has the same behaviour. Well, almost the same, because Studio reports some repetitions even after a project has been fully translated, while memoq reports zero repetitions.

I'm astonished that I had not noticed all these years. Perhaps I have the bug, after all!

[Edited at 2018-05-26 07:02 GMT]


 
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memoq's inconsistent statistics






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